When the Grand Master is gone....

[Ari Bolden]

Something to ponder:

Some people never realize how good they have it until it is gone. Grand Master Helio Gracie isn't going to live forever. When he dies, countless threads and pages will pay homage to him. They'll be thousands of poeple who write " I wish I could have met or trained with him once."

When that is gone, it's gone. This goes for countless other martial artists in the world today. For me, I would have done anything to train with the founder of Aikido or Daito Ryu (but they both died before I was born). I have had the oppertunity to train with some of their students however (who are grand masters in their own right).

Problem is, many of these teachers (or grand masters) are quite old. How would it have been to train with these guys when they were in their 30s/40s/50s?

Many people don't see the merit of these guys until they are too old to really do what they do best.

For me, I have had the chance to train with some GREAT martial artists. I truly believe in 30 years, I'll be able to say " Yeah, I trained under Eddie Bravo when he was at his best and in his prime."

Moral of the story: Now is the time. Young or old, try to train with someone of high technical ability and character (yes, character!) for when they are gone, you don't want to be the guy who said " I wish I did."

[Ryan]

I will catch a plane to Canada Ari.

I liked what you said about Helio. Its so true. Are you going to make a tribute video about him when he passes?

[Ari Bolden]

Laugh..I wasn't talking about me :) but thanks for the vote of confidence.

As for Helio, there will be many more poeple closer to him that will do that. I respect everything he has done, but I was blessed by different masters in my training.

[Ryan]

but what are you compared to Eddie B? You create your own moves too right?

so your an innovator. same as Helio

[Ari Bolden]

I think anyone can "invent" something. Using my name in the same sentence with EB and Helio...I don't think so. I'm just a guy doing his thing.

All I wanted to even do was to teach. As I've said, I am not the best grappler in the world but I think my "gift" is teaching.

But, thanks for the kind comments Ryan.

[r4p7ur3]

My Grandmaster is 68yo and still grapples with us. I am blessed to train with him. I hope one day to come up to Canada and train with you Ari. Your teaching through the videos definitely shows your love for JJ and I would love to tell my other practitioners that I trained with you.

[Ghosted3]

There are a few people that I would love to train with in the next couple of years. On the other side of the coin I hope I am as open minded late in the game as I am right now. Maybe I will go see some "young innovator" and be in awe. And you and Eddie are both on my list, as are a few more teachers who are open minded.

[Hadaka Jime]

you are a great teacher Ari and i really hope to one day do what you do, teach the art that i love and i also hope to one day become a grandmaster in my Dojo, i want to be that guy you know, the one with the Dojo on the top of the hill with the 200 year old guy who would beat on Jackie Chan after Jackie Chan beat every other world champ (old old Chan videos:p any one remember that one??)I want that to be me, i hope to learn absolutely everything i can about the art and my love and passion of the art out weighs my greed for money, i will charge low amounts of money so i can show the world a great art and devote my life to it, as far as Helio i went to a seminar with him and value every word (that the translators said also:p ) he is a great man and has done wonders for the art and i envy him for being 80+ years old still doing what he loves....when he dies it will be a sad day in the world of JJ, i am lucky to have had the experience of rolling with him 2 times and having a long seminar that he was teaching with some of his Family

as far as rolling, he whooped me 2 times, and we started standing, i have a good judo back round and his Family said don't go easy on him (throws etc...) so i would try throws and get stuffed, he has the strongest grip out of anyone i have ever trained with, still to this day i don't know how, he had a death grip, when he grabbed on you didn't shake him off, he was amazing... Roll 1, started standing, clinched up he took dominant position i tried an osoto guruma to just power threw him hopefully but he had me locked down and stuffed it bad, he set up for a hip toss on 1 side, switched his grip and pivoted out and hip tossed me on the other side, he took side control, mounted and i tried to roll, but he held me down and finished with a arm bar.... round 2, he starts out sweeps my foot out and i did a crappy sacrifice throw so we were both down, i scrambled up... and then we clinch again... try an uchi-mata and get stuffed then he takes my back standing, and yanked me down and i used 2 on 1 to start but he didn't even look for rear naked he rolled into an arm bar right away i tried to counter and he basically did a text book STUFFAGE as Dan shows in counter to a counter and finished the arm bar, i am pretty good at rolling, i can do well vs Relson but Helio dominated me, no effort perfect technique and amazing grips, he used wrist control and i would shake like hell to get him off but it was worthless he clamped down way to strong, so i learned a ton had the pleasure of rolling with the starter of GJJ had a great time at the seminar and will never forget rolling with a legend even though i got arm bar'd 2 times it was the experience of a life time

[Ghosted3]

Might seem like a silly question since I am well noted for saying things like Pics or Vids....but do you have either of those. To be able to hang pics of you rolling with Helio in your dojo would be very cool. It must have been amazing even to attend the seminar let alone roll with him twice.

[Tom Gavrilos]

I think anyone can "invent" something. Using my name in the same sentence with EB and Helio...I don't think so. I'm just a guy doing his thing.

All I wanted to even do was to teach. As I've said, I am not the best grappler in the world but I think my "gift" is teaching.

But, thanks for the kind comments Ryan.
Nor am I. In fact I train more MMA than BJJ when I can now.
I don't have tourney belts etc... I do have my RNC win.

Helio is on a different level than EVERYONE IMO.(inventor of BJJ as we know it!) Different than Eddie whom in his own right a sort of inventor....someone who lets people know BJJ is one form of the ever-evolving J.J.
He is also tested in top level competition which not only makes him a great thinker/teacher but a top notch practitioner. He also hold a Black Belt in BJJ from Jean Jacques Machado who is a spectacular Master.

Ari your gift truly is in teaching. I don't know how well you roll nor do i really care to be honest. It would be fun to roll with you but not to say you or i won but because I respect you and the way you approach and advance the knowledge of this great sport!

I try and do the same with the company and the forum; keep the sport alive and share it with new people no matter how big or small an impact I may have on the overall scheme of things I'm proud of my actions.

Guys - You can find the greatest JJ Players at the ADCC and Mundials events year after year.

[Ryan]

Ari- You should feel fortunate that people are recognizing the things you do while still alive. Many people are not appreciated or recognized for their contributions until they are long gone. You videos are all over youtube, your site, this site, dvds and I am certain other places as well. Ari- you are a Canadian who has found his way into the home of a guy that lives in a village in West Ohio and a population of 2500 people. Your getting known, recognized and I hope you accept mine and others recognition in this forum as a compliment that is deserved. Helio would still be proud of you for helping spread the knowledge.

[Tom Gavrilos]

Ari- You should feel fortunate that people are recognizing the things you do while still alive. Many people are not appreciated or recognized for their contributions until they are long gone. You videos are all over youtube, your site, this site, dvds and I am certain other places as well. Ari- you are a Canadian who has found his way into the home of a guy that lives in a village in West Ohio and a population of 2500 people. Your getting known, recognized and I hope you accept mine and others recognition in this forum as a compliment that is deserved. Helio would still be proud of you for helping spread the knowledge.

well said Ryan

[Hadaka Jime]

No vids i Have some polaroids of me and Him standing together, i don't have a scanner but they are framed and they will def be up in my dojo, he is my Idle in JJ and it was a once in a life time experience, he is a great guy from what i have seen from him... nothing but the utmost respect for him and what he has done

[Dannicus]

Speaking of the Grand Master, I found This Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmWUQ5SRco) on You Tube of a 7 minute interview he did a while back. I watched it twice. If I could download and keep it, I would.

my Instructor said the other day something that struck a chord with me. He said. "Helio has probably forgotten more about jiu jitsu than you and I will ever learn." What an honor it would be to roll with this man. Brett. I can say I am very jealous.




EDIT: 2 Minute video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU) of Helios fight vs Kimura. Awesome stuff.

[Hadaka Jime]

yeah he hit on 1 key thing... people that are born with a strong body already have a good base for jiu jitsu and if they use it with his good technique then they are 2 times as good (EX: Rickson Gracie.. physically a pretty strong man, and his technique is nearly flawless) 6 minutes of quality info nice find the other dan:p

[prodigypenn]

i think now adays to train with helio you gotta b on good terms with the gracies, my instrcutor said they only allow ppl who they know personally and trust to go to their ranch house or w/e to trainwith helio, and you still gotta pay. Altho being a close student of royler my instructor was allowed to train for free

[Hadaka Jime]

i payed and it was a seminar and have been close to relson

[RyanREVRACAJudo]

One of the instructors at our club Carlton is well into his 70s black belt in Japanese Jiu Jitsu brown in judo and its truely an honor the few times I do roll with him hes definatly got a lot of experience thats for sure.

[Tom Gavrilos]

One of the instructors at our club Carlton is well into his 70s black belt in Japanese Jiu Jitsu brown in judo and its truely an honor the few times I do roll with him hes definatly got a lot of experience thats for sure.

Very cool. Welcome on board by the way!!

[Ryan]

How hard do they ask you to go with the instructor in his 70's?

[Tom Gavrilos]

How hard do they ask you to go with the instructor in his 70's?

I highly doubt you are supposed to be trying to submit Helio

[PhxRph]

I just wanted to throw Dan Inosanto's name out for Grand Masters. He recently got his black belt from the Machado's and is probably the number one authority in the world for Filipino martial arts, and Jeet Kune Do.

I definitely think that he would be an amazing person to train under.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Well the inevitable happened. Any new thoughts on the state of jiu jitsu now that the master is gone?

[Tagg1080]

well, i think it is up to people like eddie, that have seen a light, so to speak, and will carry on the evolution of the game.

helio was a visionary, he saw what jiu jitsu was at its core, he created tons of things with a greater understanding of the big picture.

eddie has seen a little more of the picture, and has added to it.

he will continue, and the game will continue evolving slowly until the next great mind comes along and sees another giant piece of the puzzle.

[Ghosted3]

Well the inevitable happened. Any new thoughts on the state of jiu jitsu now that the master is gone?

Right now there is a kid in a gym somewhere that is trying stuff never before seen because it feels natural, hopefully it will catch on!

[CEB]

His name is Andrew.

[Hadaka Jime]

I highly doubt you are supposed to be trying to submit Helio

dude i rolled with the man twice, it doesn't matter if you tried to submit him, he was very strong and his technique was still perfect with his age. I was trying my hardest to shake him off, his grip is too tight and he keeps all the small amount of weight on you perfectly... he may have wieghed around 130 pounds but it felt like 200. He was amazing to roll with

but now that he's gone i don't think much has changed as far as the game

[Ari Bolden]

Brett:

Its not the game...its the politics. However, having just visited with Rorion and his son's in LA, I can honestly say that GJJ is in GOOD hands. Rorion in fact has been running the show for a long while now and is the mastermind behind what everyone is learning.

[younwha]

So has the title of Grandmaster been handed down to someone else now? Or will it be a 'retired' title?

[Dannicus]

I doubt there will ever be another Grand Master. The red belt and 10th degree has been reserved for the founding Gracie brothers. At least to my way of thinking, if you can't reach the highest degree, you shouldn't be going by the title of Grand Master

[prodigypenn]

reaching the highest levels isnt rlly about being able to do anything, at least physically. Its more of a mental game at that point, cuz most of the rlly high ranking guys r getting on in years, and cant b expected to keep up with all the young guys. i think politics and time have alot to do with it. Rorion is like 9th degree black, but he is not recognized officially becuz he hasnt gotten to the official age where u can b awarded such a high degree

[Dr Sick]

What a great thread! I'm so glad it was revived so that I would have a chance to read it. What a prophetic topic. And now here we are... after the fact.

I just wanted to say, that I totally agree with the spirit of this thread. Ajarn Chai has always said "Time waits for no man." And I've always taken this to mean, don't ever take anything for granted... Now is the time.

I've got to ask though... with total respect in my heart and hopefully my words as well, what is someone's "prime"?

There is that window in one's life where his/her physical abilities can make up for a lack in technique, and a time that technique can make up for a lack in physical ability. And then, there is a time where one comes to understand the greater cosmos that is his/her art. And perhaps beyond that, there is one's understanding of how to continue in ones art beyond their physical years.

I read an article about Hatsumi Sensei (Ninjitsu) that talked about how in his younger years he taught the more brutal form of his art to a select few. But as he grew older, he changed the emphasis and spread the art to a much more general part of the public. You have to wonder what part of his life he considers his prime. There are merits to both I am sure.

And along these lines I have to ask as well, are not the contributions and insights into the game and how it's played later in life, just as important as those made at the "prime" time? For instance, I feel that the ideas and concepts put forth by instructors such as Roy Harris (Jiu-jitsu beyond 30) and Steve Maxwell (The Spartan Workout - Joint Mobility), are every bit as important as those made by the current trend setters. I don't want to be relegated to the sidelines or to be patronized as an older instructor or player.

And I also have contemplated the question of "what would it have been like to work with so and so in their prime"? And many times I have thought... You know, I probably wouldn't have liked it near as much, nor would I have learned as much as I did, when I got to work with them.

I recently had a chance to work under Coach Billy Robinson. He walks with a cane, has two knee replacements and a hip replacement. I'll be honest, I'll bet I wouldn't have lasted 2 seconds in a gym with him during what most people would considered his prime. I would have taken one look at him back suplexing everyone on their heads and making them do it to each other and I would have sprinted out of there like my @$$ was on fire. But getting a chance to work with him now, allowed me to learn from him in a setting where I didn't fear for my life. And I learned a great deal as a result.

The same can be said of Ajarn Surachai Sirisute. I met him at the tail end of middle age. I was around as he began to deliver his last dose of hematomas and swollen eye sockets. Over the decade that followed, I saw those reduced to black eyes and bloody noses. I got to work with him when I just needed to show good discipline and respect and I got to learn the art, and the technical details of TBA Muay Thai.

Before that time, you would do 10 kicks, 10 knees, 10 kicks until Ajarn was satisfied that you deserved to learn from him and that might be 10 minutes later or 10 hours. Then you were asked to keep your hand up, then told to, then if you forgot again, you woke up with Ajarn standing over you saying "keep your hand up sir." That would have been after he knocked you out. Those were his prime years by most people's standards, but to me, I am happy that I was able to see enough of that Ajarn to believe the stories, but enough of the more seasoned Ajarn to just enjoy the art and the learning from him. To me, I train with Ajarn to this day, while he is still in his prime.

That being said I want to put two more things into this post before signing off. First, I don't want to detract from the very important message in this thread. Don't wait, do it now. Go and train with that legend you've been watching and reading about. You won't regret it. But if you miss the chance, you will. For the rest of your life. Prime or not. The greats all have so much to offer, and to you instructors out there, it's our obligation to go and learn form them so that we can help to pass on their legacy and keep their message alive forever.

And to the gentleman who mentioned Guro Dan Inosanto. Seriously, dude. You must make the pilgrimage. And you must do it soon. He is perhaps the most knowledgeable Martial Artist to ever have walked the earth. I don't know if there will ever be anyone with the amount of experience of Guro Inosanto ever again. Yes he is the leading expert in JKD and many, many forms of the Phillippino Martial Arts, in addition to being a BJJ Blackbelt, but he's also the Vice President of the Thai Boxing Association of the USA, he was pivotal in influencing the game of Larry Hartsel, and was the reason that Sensei Yori Nakamura and thus Shooto came to America, which in turn influenced Sensei Paulson and CSW. Guro Inosanto is THE GODFATHER of Martial Arts. Savate, Kenpo, Silat, Wing Chun, you name it, he has been there to help the masters of the arts take root and grow in the US and abroad. Do yourself a favor and go train with him at least once. He'll be coming to Utah in June and I'll be there for both days. That's what this thread is all about. Seeking out that person and getting that experience at least one time.

Now I've worn out my keyboard.

I'm out!

[Dr Sick]

I'm back.

I wanted to put this in my last post but I forgot. That's what I get for making such a long winded novel. At any rate here is a clip for you to ponder

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mm3CmNE72Bw&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Mm3CmNE72Bw&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Ari Bolden]

I am amazed at what Brian wrote. I had to double check and make sure it wasn't written by my hand! Boy-did he ever hit the nail on the head. I don't have anything to add to what he said but I would like to add another example of an 'old man' in his prime.

The founder of Aikido, Ueshiba Morihei, once said that he didn't come into his prime into his 50's! He had a spiritual event one day in his garden and his aikido changed tremendously. People peak at different times. Here is a very cool interview (much like Brian's above)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-Sugag-Ncs&feature=related
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k-Sugag-Ncs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k-Sugag-Ncs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[naturalbornfighter1]

Wow! great posts Dr sick! You need to get on here more often and share your wisdom with us more often. With you and Ari feeding us with your knowelege we'll be unstoppable!

Loved the video's too, does anyne else feel that this kind of attitude is missing from MMA. Its like they took all the techniques and very few carried over the mental self improvement and enlightenment part of the traditional arts. I feel this is a real shame. The mental benefits of training seem totally left out and substituted with the MMA lifestyle.

I totally agree. The grandmasters have a wisdom tht you can only gain through many years of experience. I have found that things you read or hear from them sometimes don't make sense to you but later on in life you gain an understanding of the point they were trying to get across. I love this forum!

[Tagg1080]

does anyne else feel that this kind of attitude is missing from MMA. Its like they took all the techniques and very few carried over the mental self improvement and enlightenment part of the traditional arts. I feel this is a real shame. The mental benefits of training seem totally left out and substituted with the MMA lifestyle.

That needed to be said again, :D



Grandmasters are not a common thing. A lot of the arts today that are popular are not to far from their masters. Modern tkd still has original bb's alive, American Kenpo still has original black belts alive, same thing with GJJ. As with what every has said, these masters are not going to live forever, and it is in the older years of their lives that they REALLY learn what martial arts is. A lot of younger guys think that the word Martial is the important part, but in our later years we realize that the word Art is the one of real importance.

[younwha]

Loved the video's too, does anyne else feel that this kind of attitude is missing from MMA. Its like they took all the techniques and very few carried over the mental self improvement and enlightenment part of the traditional arts. I feel this is a real shame. The mental benefits of training seem totally left out and substituted with the MMA lifestyle.


You'd actually be surprised how a lot of the MMA fighters think. It's usually the young ones that have a lack of respect for themselves, others, and martial arts in general. However when given the chance to speak with some of the guys in their 30's you'd be quite surprised that they're actually fond of traditional arts. To a certain degree. They understand where MMA has come from.

[Martin]

When i'm back to fitness, i plan to train under a guy named Rick Young who i believe is a direct student under Dan Inosanto. I expect to learn a lot from him.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Great, great posts Brian!!!!

Thanks for sharing. Also, let us know the dates that Dan Inosanto will be in Utah!! That is something I really don't want to miss out on...........

[Dr Sick]

Guro Dan Inosanto will be at the Bernales Institute of Martial Arts in downtown Salt Lake City Utah June 6th and 7th this year.

You can get more information at www.bernalesinstitute.com

We usually work whatever he wants to teach. But if given the chance we've discussed seeing if Guro would mind showing us some grappling oriented stuff on Saturday. And that could be anything from Silat takedowns (downed fighter takes down standing fighter), to Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, to original Shooto Lockflows, to Grappling with a Blade, and or Dumog, there is just so much that he has to teach.

On that note, when was the last time you saw someone with the level of experience and knowledge as Guro, at 70 years of age, actively and humbly asking questions and working to learn. It's the "Stay Green Mentality" and yet another example of a master, still in his prime:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZKNlYBCkO0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZKNlYBCkO0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Otto]

What a great thread this is! Thanks for sharing all the great video clips. And Dan Inosanto so rocks, and has for so long now, it just blows the mind. I had no idea he had been training with the Machados. Wow. Just wow.

[younwha]

"Master Student"

and just to razz you guys, in case you didn't notice in that video... what does that say on the wall? Taekwondo? lol :D hmm