Judo vs. MMA

[Rayman]

Hiya.

Ive been training some judo for about 4 months, taking a break from MMA now. Ive found my self in trouble rolling with judokas, because most of them prefer to sprawl on their belly, rather than being in a turtle, and the scariest part is they defend this position EXTREMELY well.
Funnily enough I have almost never fought this position, even in BJJ.

Almost all the good ammo I have attacking this position are the half and full nelson. When trying to get a kimura or a key lock etc. they immediatly pin my forearm to the armpit and start to roll me over, this is also done freakishly well. Im lost here. This has been a real eye opener for me to train with good judokas. Here on out I have nothing but admiration for them :D

So I humbly ask you submissions101 users to share your knowledge about attacking and fighting a position where one just sprawls to ones belly and protects the throat.

[Rasamat]

I'm not sure I really understand your Q. Like he's defending and your attacking. Is his back against the floor or what? And what, he doesn't have you in his guard, letting his legs sprawled onto the floor? I don't see how someone can defend without being turtled, if his memebers are all extended, he loses power.

Well if he's sprawled, just get into a better position. I'd try to get his back or get him into a scarf hold. If he's not having you in his guard, then move to a better position where it'll be really easy to win.

[CEB]

FWIW - I go to the belly sometimes due to instinct. But this is not worth a damn in Jiu Jitsu. All this does is buy you a butt whipping. In Judo it is a neutral position and it will you put back on your feet.

There are several things you can try against this in Judo. Nothing is guaranteed because some guys are just like a rock in the belly down position.

Simpliest thing is you can try straddle over their back and grab the back of their collar with both hands and yank up as explosively and as hard as you can then quickly try to work. You can grab the belt and try the same thing.

It is a neutral position so you have to show progress pretty quickly or you go back to standing.

[Ari Bolden]

Hey Raymon:

I'd love to make a video of this, great question! As Ceb pointed out, yanking on the back of their collar to expose their neck is one option (if they have a gi on!). There are a few ways to crack the nut so to speak.

Many years back, I was faced with the exact same thing. I was rolling with a judoka, and he kept giving me his back. I thought "This guy is crazy! What a gift." Then, to my utter surprise, his RNC defense was crazy good. I couldn't get in there at all. After our match, I sat with him and he began to explain what he was doing, where he would grab, what he would do when he felt my arm come around his neck etc.

I broke it down and learned the mechanics and WHY he was doing what he was doing (judo rules and such). From that point on, I started to work on a 'nut cracker'.

Fast forward 8 years. I was rolling with a black belt in judo and guess what, he gave his back up in a turtle and belly sprawl. Well, a lot had changed in those 8 years. I knew that this guy was use to certain things. If I went for his neck, like a traditional judoka, he'd defend well. So, Ari digs into his tool box for a few things.

1) Over/under control al la Marcelo Garcia
2) We were wearing gis that day, but nogi, some judokas are REALLY lost (as are a lot of BJJers mind you ;-)
3) The sambo/catch wrestling tools..attack the legs! Bind, twist turn...boy this is one FAST way to get a guy moving if he is laying on his belly.

Remember, when a judoka is lying flat on the belly, it is unconventional to you. In order to break him down, don't play his game. Use something HE isn't used to (like leg attacks). This get's many guys moving like they just stepped on hot coals.

There are also a few gi grabs and tie ups that will help you move his body. A real simple one is the "suit case". Judoka lays flat on the floor, defending the neck really well. Mount your opponent. Spring up to your feet. Grab, with both hands, the belt. Pull upwards very hard (lifting their belly off the ground). Get one hook in then the other. Roll. Attack as normally.

[Herm]

I had a judo guy pull this on me last night. If you can get your hooks in (at least one) before he goes belly down then try to roll with him onto your back, so that you are on your back in back control. From this you can work RNC, triangle chokes, collar chokes, armbars, ankle locks ect ect. Another option is to let off a little so he can try to get up to his knees and move to side position and bump him onto his back then move to side control.

a note about the first piece of advice: when rolling onto your back, roll towards the side that you have the hook in, and don't try to roll straight back as this is very difficult if the guy is bigger than you.

Edit: and sensei beats me to the punch!! where was this advice last night when I needed it :p

[CEB]

....
There are also a few gi grabs and tie ups that will help you move his body. A real simple one is the "suit case". Judoka lays flat on the floor, defending the neck really well. Mount your opponent. Spring up to your feet. Grab, with both hands, the belt. Pull upwards very hard (lifting their belly off the ground). Get one hook in then the other. Roll. Attack as normally.

I like that name ( The suitcase ) I may borrow that nomenclature. That is my #2 option. #1 is the collar yank. That is about the only 2 things I use in Judo.

[Ari Bolden]

Herm, who was it? Was it Will or Drew?

[Herm]

neither actually, it was this old guy I've never seen before. I think he came for the first time on friday while you were away and then again last night. His belly down RNC defence was hella good. I had him turtled (on his knees and elbows) and I was trying to work the roll into spider web but I was doing something wrong, either that or he was too big for me since he out-weighed me by at least 40lbs. I just ended up rolling to one side after he went belly down and finally got the RNC.

[Ari Bolden]

Was he a blad guy about 5"9 late 40's? I chatted with him before I left to NM. I'll be in there tonite for a bit and if not, I'll see you tomorrow.

[Herm]

yep thats him. Have you talked to Dylan yet?

[Ari Bolden]

No I haven't..why, what's up?

[Rayman]

Of course! hehe, grab the belt. Dont know how that had sliped my mind.. well never was a good BJJ player :D


1) Over/under control al la Marcelo Garcia


I am not entirely sure what you mean by this could you elaborate.

Thanks for the replys.

[Hadaka Jime]

i want to train at the dragons lair :( *jealous*

as far as this belly down judo approach goes, i know i technique designed to snap the spine... i think it's illegal though :-D, the way i approach this while rollin with a strong judo player, what i will do if they give me there back, i try and get side ways to make our bodies line up like a t and like the bump try and force them up, as soon as they are the littlest propped up you have to be explosive and throw one hook underneath and use ur momentom and roll all the way through to get standard back control, but as many of you know judo guys are tough sons of bitches when it comes to their RNC defense so, i like the armbar from back control, it's simple and quick to do, but if you drill this armbar from back a TON then when you get to back control vs a judo guy RNC may not even sound appealing when you know you've drilled this armbar so many times your going to hit it.

The thing is, i have rolled with judo guys so many times, i can RNC choke them by having a good attack and active arms with a body triangle on and work for the RNC it is easier after you know how they work, and it's very hard for them to work when your squeezing the life outta there body

[BadKarmaRising]

Ari hit the nail on the head. Attack the legs/ankles. Also things like knuckle chokes which aren't legal in judo should have him out of his comfort zone.

[batsugan]

I once had the pleasure of attending a training camp run by John Saylor (one time olympic Judo coach) and Mike Swain (Judo champion and coach). This scenario was presented and like Ari the legs and ankles were attacked. Also, while I had very little luck with it, a few good catch guys, were able to scarf hold from behind and attack the arm closest to them before being rolled over. That seemed to be a good technique.

[CEB]

If you are in a Judo class. You need to follow Judo rules. Don't worry so much about winning. You are probably doing good.

I remember my first 6 months of Judo. It was brutal. I could never win. Then things started to come together and it was good.

[Luiz]

If you are in a Judo class. You need to follow Judo rules. Don't worry so much about winning. You are probably doing good.

I remember my first 6 months of Judo. It was brutal. I could never win. Then things started to come together and it was good.
Well, my first 6 monthos of bjj were also like this :p

[CEB]

Mine weren't. I mean .... sure I suck but I also win a few. :D

I remember when I started Karate in 1974. Classes were 3 hours long. They were brutal meatgrinders. Nothing like the strip mall bullshit you see today. But taking some Karate knocks and bruises and doing painful exercises is nothing like being suffocated by 200 pounds of man and experiencingthe unleashed force of gravity on your body over and over again....IMO.

Gravity and being crushed sucks sometimes. :)

[Tom Gavrilos]

I have noticed Judokas have a strong ability to stall ground positions.
They also have retard strength when it comes to what I like to call "trap and turn"

Its not a switch like in wrestling its not a sweep like in BJJ its just a Judoka thing. They can manipulate their GIs and hips in unicen in some really unique ways.

A good Judoka is tough to fight standing or on the mat. A more complete "single art" than most in my opinion.

[Locoplata]

Ari is right: leg attacks!!

Simplest- go for some calf cranks with your shin right in there across the back of his knee. It's a straight up gift position if you are good at leg locks.