Takedowns for newbs

[virginiamma]

Hi.. new here... blah blah.. thats my intro... ;-)

Short:
If you have limited takedown training what would you drill for the next 5 weeks to get ready for tourney?

Long:

NAGA is in about 5 weeks. I am entering the mens masters beginner no gi division. In class we cover lots and lots of ground work and I have my ground strategy worked out. We don't cover enough takedowns nor do we usually start rolling from our feet so I am pretty lost there.

I have trained in some with the double leg, single leg, and briefly covered arm drag to firemans carry. If you had 5 weeks what would you recommend a newb focus on? (and yes I am talking to my coach about it to)

[CEB]

What do you weigh?

[BadKarmaRising]

Hi.. new here... blah blah.. thats my intro... ;-)



Short:
If you have limited takedown training what would you drill for the next 5 weeks to get ready for tourney?

Long:

NAGA is in about 5 weeks. I am entering the mens masters beginner no gi division. In class we cover lots and lots of ground work and I have my ground strategy worked out. We don't cover enough takedowns nor do we usually start rolling from our feet so I am pretty lost there.

I have trained in some with the double leg, single leg, and briefly covered arm drag to firemans carry. If you had 5 weeks what would you recommend a newb focus on? (and yes I am talking to my couch about it to)


5 weeks to learn + double or single leg take down = tap out from guillotine choke

My advice, work ankle picks if you have wrist/elbow control and blocking type sweeps if you can get an over under clinch or traditional wrestling tie up.

I would recomend you actually stay away from working singles and doubles until after your event if you're not already comfortable with them. Under stress you're going to do what you've done the most whether you're good at it or not. So if you've been practicing trying to dive in on legs, that's what you're going to do under stress. Except under stress, you're not going to do it as well as when you're actually practicing it unless it's become second nature.

Good luck and be sure to let us know how you did!

[virginiamma]

I am planning on weighing in at middle weight @179#

[virginiamma]

5 weeks to learn + double or single leg take down = tap out from guillotine choke


Yeah.. thats what I am afraid of...
The only thing I am 1/2 decent at is an arm drag to taking the side.



My advice, work ankle picks if you have wrist/elbow control and blocking type sweeps if you can get an over under clinch or traditional wrestling tie up.


Cool..



I would recomend you actually stay away from working singles and doubles until after your event if you're not already comfortable with them. Under stress you're going to do what you've done the most whether you're good at it or not. So if you've been practicing trying to dive in on legs, that's what you're going to do under stress. Except under stress, you're not going to do it as well as when you're actually practicing it unless it's become second nature.


Yeah....


Good luck and be sure to let us know how you did!

Will do.. :-)

I have been reviewing videos of the beginnner no gi division that are on online. Looks like there aren't many people with good takedowns at the level of competition. Really sucks though I feel totally incompetent at what seems like 1/2 the game.

[BadKarmaRising]

Yeah.. thats what I am afraid of...
The only thing I am 1/2 decent at is an arm drag to taking the side.

Then practice an arm drag to ankle pick combo. If you miss the arm drag because they're planting their leading foot and jerking the arm back from you, let them have the arm. For a moment they will be slightly off balanced to their rear, bringing some of their weight off of their advanced foot. Try picking that ankle then.

[CEB]

I am planning on weighing in at middle weight @179#
Right in the middle.

Little guys seem to like shooting. Big guys seem to like to tie up. I guess you should drill on defending both. My boy like coax the other guy into shooting so he can fight from the sprawl. When he first started he was fight most his matches from the sprawl.

179# is a fun weight. You guys can be really strong and really fast both.

Have fun.

[Ari Bolden]

5 weeks.

As Karam said, a single/double leg could lead to a guillotine.

Tie ups from the upper body are safer (al la Judo) but can really take the steam out of you, especailly if you only have 5 mins to work your game.

For me (this is my game plan), I sit on my butt and butt scoot in. I forget about the takedown (and points). I want to get right to business. No, it doesn't look cool but I have no problem working off my back and attacking or sweeping from there.

Throws and takedowns are GREAT, don't get me wrong but you want to look at a the guy ans say " Let's grapple" and not " Do ya want to dance?"

(joke Judo guys...joke!)

My 2 cents

[BadKarmaRising]

5 weeks.



For me (this is my game plan), I sit on my butt and butt scoot in. I forget about the takedown (and points). I want to get right to business. No, it doesn't look cool but I have no problem working off my back and attacking or sweeping from there.



My 2 cents


Dear lord!

My dog does that.
Every time I see it I scold her for watching too many BJJ videos.

[CEB]

Her scent glands need popped. At first I thought my dog was wipping its ass on the floor.

[Ari Bolden]

If I wanted it to look pretty, I'd do aikido.

Besides, it is a hard thing to swallow when you get tapped by a butt scootin' jiu jitsu dog :D

The art of war: Play your game, not his.

Or, use a sutemi (sacrifice throw) and yell real loud! It looks awesome :D (on a side note, many years back I tried a tome nage on a guy who had no experience what so ever. We were grappling from a stand up position, he had no gi on and we circled for a bit. I had done the move hundreds of times in class, with partners who knew ukemi (how to fall) but I was never sure if it would work on someone who was a noob. The result was surprising and rewarding. A full sacrifice throw into a full mount. Testing moves on TOTAL beginners is a true test to see if the technique works because beginners move in totally strange (sometimes unsafe) ways and will do everything to screw you up.)

[Ghosted3]

You can pull guard or scoot. My next tourney I am going to do a flying triangle. That is all there is to it. Its my favorite move and damnit I am going to attempt it in competition!.

[Ghosted3]

I went for a sacrifice throw in my first tourney, guy moved his leg just in time (plus I wasnt very proficient in the throw) :mad:

[CEB]

If I wanted it to look pretty, I'd do aikido.

Besides, it is a hard thing to swallow when you get tapped by a butt scootin' jiu jitsu dog :D

The art of war: Play your game, not his.

Or, use a sutemi (sacrifice throw) and yell real loud! It looks awesome :D (on a side note, many years back I tried a tome nage on a guy who had no experience what so ever. We were grappling from a stand up position, he had no gi on and we circled for a bit. I had done the move hundreds of times in class, with partners who knew ukemi (how to fall) but I was never sure if it would work on someone who was a noob. The result was surprising and rewarding. A full sacrifice throw into a full mount. Testing moves on TOTAL beginners is a true test to see if the technique works because beginners move in totally strange (sometimes unsafe) ways and will do everything to screw you up.)

My teacher taught me how to pull guard a few weeks ago because I wanted to learn it so I could decide how I want to combat it. The first step on the guard pull was to put you foot into his hip to control him. It was pretty much the same type of setup as yoko tomoe nage. That has inspired me to start using Yoko Tomoe Nage again.

[Ari Bolden]

Ed:

Agreed, yoko tome nage is a good move! Its nice to see the blend of the 2 styles and make it work for YOU! That's the point of the art, IMHO.

[danjr]

WAR VirginiaMMA!!! (I still dont get it..)

[batsugan]

In the limited amount of time that you have, I agree with Ari. Butt scoot in. Don't try something that you haven't gotten adept at. That's what leads to hesitation and hesitation leads to tap outs. Good Luck.

[virginiamma]

danka...

Talked to coach last night and he wants me to pull guard. Theres a method to it he's going to show me tonight.

Apparently the grab and flop technique I've been doing doesn't cut it.

[CEB]

No you need to control his hips so he doesn't pass.

[Hadaka Jime]

If I wanted it to look pretty, I'd do aikido.

The art of war: Play your game, not his.
or capoiera :p it looks awesome

very true game plan, i never worry about the other team or opponents game more then i do mine, if you worry about yourself and what your going to go in and do then you can control the flow of the fight and make them play your game, ari slowing down aaron is a great example, if ari went in and tried to out power/speed aaron i think it'd be a different fight but if you control the pace and make them play your game they fall into all your chained attacks and sweeps etc... so keep your pace and worry about your game not theirs.

Dear lord!

My dog does that.
Every time I see it I scold her for watching too many BJJ videos.

Her scent glands need popped. At first I thought my dog was wipping its ass on the floor.
i think there was missed e-sarcasm in this(i scold her for watching to many BJJ videos referring to ari's butscooting vids:p ), but i guess now if my dog ever drags i'll know what to do:D

now to the original post

How is your half guard game, because if it's week the but scoot may be a bad choice

if you have a good game off you back (from having full guard to being in side control etc...) then you should butt scoot

if you have 5 weeks, i suggest throws compared to take downs, if you have an opportunity ask you teacher for some basic effective throws, small inner/outer throws or if you pick up fast you can nail big throws and take control of the match from the feet, your only as good as your worst quality, so there are ways to avoid being on the feet (pulling guard, scooting etc..) but if you are going to be in the JJ for a while i suggest working a lot on getting some money take downs, throws, or clinches where most of the time there is an easy trip simple foot behind theres push them over it and get on top, GSP does this ALL THE TIME in MMA, it allowed him to take down 2 incredible wrestlers, so find what works best for you, good luck in the tourny, pics and vids are much appreciated and welcome to BJG forum

[virginiamma]

thanks for the welcome...

My 1/2 guard is good. Only issue I have had was with a small guy that suprised me. Basically he had short legs that let him avoid a lockdown... I need to adjust for that or pull full I guess.

Off my back in full I am "OK". I got mission control down and I think I am going to work that for all its worth. Also basic high guard triangles... arm bars though never work for me from full....

My weakest areas..
Standup, Leg lock defense,

Also I keep getting guillotined when we start from the knees and I go for a position. I don't know if this is a weakness on my part that will translate to standup or if being on your knees makes me more vulnerable to it.

[nickbjj]

Ari, do you think you could post a vid of your "butt scooting" strategy... i tried it last night and it didn't go very well. Also is this what EB did at the beginning of the Royler Gracie match?

[virginiamma]

Ari, do you think you could post a vid of your "butt scooting" strategy... i tried it last night and it didn't go very well. Also is this what EB did at the beginning of the Royler Gracie match?

Sounds a lot like an X-guard to me...

[Luiz]

Well, Im in almost the same situation, except im going to fight on april 19, and that's the second time.
I know well Sasae, ippon seoi nage and Obi otoshi, and that's it, i never fight on my foot when i train. When i competed last time (in november last year), i couldn't pull him, he was just pushing me around until he got a single leg, so, what should I do if my opponent just keeps pushing me around?

[CEB]

It really depends. There are no absolute answers. You need to use the tools you have. If my opponent wants to push then I want to pull but it depends on how he pushes and how he keeps his center. Sometimes I push back then PULL. Sometimes just pull. I like to pull angles. I like to pull by stepping in towards him on off hip angle, I lead with with Hiza Guruma a lot. (It is like Sasae but you check below the knee) Kuzushi is an art in itself.

The last 10 years or so I have had good luck against forward pressing fighters with a sacrifice throw call Uki Waza. My boy likes to tie up and the moment his opponent press forward he counters with this body crushing hip toss.

If you can get a good grip and stuff his attack you may be able to hit him with the shoulder throw. or work the Sasae / seionage combination. If your timing is real good just catch him with the seionage.

IMO ... Your throws won't really start working for you until you develop some combination. That would actually be a good topic of discussion. I could actually be of some use rather than just being playing the part of the peanut gallery.

[Ghosted3]

Ari, do you think you could post a vid of your "butt scooting" strategy... i tried it last night and it didn't go very well. Also is this what EB did at the beginning of the Royler Gracie match?

Yes it is.

[Luiz]

It really depends. There are no absolute answers. You need to use the tools you have. If my opponent wants to push then I want to pull but it depends on how he pushes and how he keeps his center. Sometimes I push back then PULL. Sometimes just pull. I like to pull angles. I like to pull by stepping in towards him on off hip angle, I lead with with Hiza Guruma a lot. (It is like Sasae but you check below the knee) Kuzushi is an art in itself.



Well, Im researching on kazushi now, i got a lot fo things to read, and at that time, i was just being pushed around and didn't know what to do
Hope that don't happen on april

[CEB]

I'm sorry. You used some of the Japanese names for your throws so I thought you probably knew kuzushi. Kuzushi is the off balancing actions that makes your throws work. All throws have 3 parts.

1) Kuzushi - off balancing your opponent.
2) Tskuri - fitting in to the technique.
3) Kake - pulling the trigger.

The first part is the most important. Without really strong off balancing you will get countered. Really Really important when doing throws where you turn your back on your opponent like in seionage. When you learn a throw breakdown and know what it is you are doing to bring the opponent off-balance then practice those movement in earnest like a crazy man.

[Luiz]

I'm sorry. You used some of the Japanese names for your throws so I thought you probably knew kuzushi. Kuzushi is the off balancing actions that makes your throws work. All throws have 3 parts.

1) Kuzushi - off balancing your opponent.
2) Tskuri - fitting in to the technique.
3) Kake - pulling the trigger.

The first part is the most important. Without really strong off balancing you will get countered. Really Really important when doing throws where you turn your back on your opponent like in seionage. When you learn a throw breakdown and know what it is you are doing to bring the opponent off-balance then practice those movement in earnest like a crazy man.

I think it's nice to know japanese throw names, now on to spend my night reading about kuzushi, i didn't know about that until I read on wikipedia and your post a few moments ago

Thanks for the advice on kuzushi

[Ryan]

Have you thought about pushing your opponent back by tapping his shoulders and then try a pick or a "tackle like" double leg? single legs would be good for side control if you are more towars their back instead of out to the side/front of their body. The single leg also allows you to throw in a whizzer if they try to take you down instead

[Luiz]

Have you thought about pushing your opponent back by tapping his shoulders and then try a pick or a "tackle like" double leg? single legs would be good for side control if you are more towars their back instead of out to the side/front of their body. The single leg also allows you to throw in a whizzer if they try to take you down instead

I was kinda nervous at the time, so i didn't think well, but he did take me down with a single leg

[flying gogo-plata]

easiest and safest takedown for me is just pummel until u've got double under hooks and then bear hug him over, use the side of ur head to push and squeeze his lower back to u while driving foward he'll go right over and u can usually land in mount, caution: this only works no-gi if u try it in gi u won't be able to get close enough