uke otoshi (floating drop)

[flying gogo-plata]

Have any of you guys seen this throw in competition before, or been able to use it on a resisting opponent? it looks like it's only possible in katas, does you opponent have to be really off balance to get thrown by it? or am i missing something here?

[danjr]

Its about timing it when uke puts all his weight on one foot. I've never seen it in a JJ competition because everyones always hunched over. The last JJ competition that I watched I saw 2 uchi matas, and an attempted osoto gari that ended with a tai otoshi. All from the same guy (only judo guy there!)

[flying gogo-plata]

Its about timing it when uke puts all his weight on one foot. I've never seen it in a JJ competition because everyones always hunched over. The last JJ competition that I watched I saw 2 uchi matas, and an attempted osoto gari that ended with a tai otoshi. All from the same guy (only judo guy there!)

would you pull him in the same direction as the leg he's got hi weight on, or would you pull the other way?

[Mikey Triangles]

link please...

[flying gogo-plata]

here's a link to an animation of the throw
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukiotoshi.htm

[danjr]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ogqmxpy7IBo&feature=related

heres a good video

[flying gogo-plata]

ok just realized i was speeling it wrong after i saw dan's link, but i still cna't find any vids of it being used against a resisting opponent:(

[Mikey Triangles]

cool, I wasn't familiar with that one... I had a hard time grasping the principle from those videos because they seem a bit cooperative. This video helped me a bit even though it's not in English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GXqC4rH6hk&NR=1

[flying gogo-plata]

cool, I wasn't familiar with that one... I had a hard time grasping the principle from those videos because they seem a bit cooperative. This video helped me a bit even though it's not in English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GXqC4rH6hk&NR=1

i saw that one, but i wasn't sure if he was actually talking about uki otoshi or not cuz he never actually does the throe in teh vid but does start a tai otoshi, and osoto otoshi then stop before finishing them so i thought that the guy titiled it might have gotten mixed up

[BadKarmaRising]

It's a throw seldom seen in competition and when you do see it the comp version doesn't look much like the kata version.

www.judoinfo.com/video/waza/67.avi
There's a strong argument for calling that a sumi otoshi by the way.

I classify throws like that into the "old man judo" category. Techniques like uki otoshi, sumi otoshi, hane goshi, and harai tsurikomi ashi need to be so pure in technique and timing that they're usually seen when the beard has gone gray and you've long since given up muscle play. (I'm no where near that point yet. I'm still convinced I can roll with 20 somethings and lift a house to boot.)


When a judoka gets to that point, it becomes amazing to watch. One of the instructors I've been privileged to train under had one of those pretty red and white stripey belts and well into his 60's could splatter me with hani goshi or sumi otoshi whenever the urge struck him. I'd come off the mat and people would make comments about my giving up throws to be polite and I'd shake my head and suggest that the commentor go grip up with the old man. The few who would quickly learned a similar appreciation for what judo really was.

[Oneiros]

I?d dare to say if you have the throw down it works best with a resisting opponent...
Those throws where not meant to be thrown with a willing opponent...
You have to train with a cooperative partner...
________
BABE ITALIAN (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/187/italian/videos/1)

[Ari Bolden]

I´d dare to say if you have the throw down it works best with a resisting opponent...
Those throws where not meant to be thrown with a willing opponent...
You have to train with a cooperative partner...


Oneiros is right. What many BJJ players miss that JJJ, aikido and Judo guys know is that these throws don't look pretty on resisting opponents or those who don't know how to take ukemi (falling).

Usually what happens is a person unfamiliar with the move will outright look at the move and claim it doesn't work based on what they SEE. The person being thrown is falling so nice that the brain registers the move as "not really working in a real fight." I hear this all the time.

As CEB, Oneiros, Badkarmarising, danuke, me and several others can tell you, if someone get's a hold of you and is good at their particular throw and you don't know how to fall, it is gonna look sloppy. Not the throw, but your ability to take it. The end result is the person getting thrown being hurt, air knocked out of them or a broken bone.

Example: The osoto gari in the gym and on the street look different. I've seen and done it in both places. One of the two sucks and hurts bad, even if it doesn't look pretty.

My 2 cents.

[danjr]

Jason was telling me about a guy at judo who's like 60 something who was teaching judo about 20-30 years ago once and this guy came up to him with a knife trying to rob him. The judo guy naturally threw an osoto gari using the assailant's face or neck instead of a lapel. He said that the assailant's head hit the ground so hard that he died before ambulances could get there.

If you get ANYTHING out of judo ... LEARN HOW TO FALL!!

[Ari Bolden]

The funny think is, I do the osoto just like you described (hand pushes the face) and so many people went off about how the throw sucked. I know, from personal experience that this combat version of the throw works super well and when your hand comes up to their face, it isn't being nice and just pushing, it is also what we call in Japanese ATEMI (or destracting strike).

Shrugs....but again...the true hurts.

[flying gogo-plata]

ok i think i see what your saying, i saw a vid i don't know where of a guy using kuzushi to take people down, and it looked alot like uki otoshi, uke landed on his side/knees, and i just thought that the throws weren't as effective but i think now i get that the throws look "grander" if done on someone who lands corectly and doesn't try to scramble or bridge to avoid getting taken down.

[BadKarmaRising]

Osoto gari is the best example of the difference between how you learn a throw and how you actually use it.

After Green belt, the throw stops working and guys can't figure out why. Yet in international comp, it's one of the better scoring throws. The reason it's so effective is because NOONE DOES IT THE WAY IT'S TAUGHT.

There's a god in the judo realm named Yasuhiro Yamashita. He never lost in comp from the time he competed in high school until the time he retired a world and olympic champion. He either threw you with osoto gari or uchi mata, you pick. I've seen countless of his matches on tape, I've watched his seminars, I've even attended one. He teaches a very textbook and highly technical Osoto Gari. Step pull reap. HE NEVER EXECUTED THE TECHNIQUE THE WAY HE TEACHES IT.

The version of the throw as taught in the gokyo was designed to teach basics that would be needed later for more advanced throws.

So Ari makes a video demonstrating a SELF DEFENSE version of the throw that he knows works because he's defended himself with it, and the keyboard cowboys go nutty.

fuck em

Hell I don't even think this response fits the thread. I may need to switch to decaf.


The funny think is, I do the osoto just like you described (hand pushes the face) and so many people went off about how the throw sucked. I know, from personal experience that this combat version of the throw works super well and when your hand comes up to their face, it isn't being nice and just pushing, it is also what we call in Japanese ATEMI (or destracting strike).

Shrugs....but again...the true hurts.

[Ari Bolden]

I think the sky opened up and some enlightenment is shinning through Steve's post above. Boy, dead on with the judoka example.

I'd also call that original video a sumi otoshi (or at least, that is what we call in in our JJJ system. A step back corner drop. But, who cares what it is called really...if it works...IT WORKS.

[flying gogo-plata]

i've seen yamashita do hiz variation of osoto gari in vids online, i always thought it was a different throw that i'm not familiar with, like osoto otosh,or osoto gaki, and it is taught like that, uh i never knew...

[BadKarmaRising]

i've seen yamashita do hiz variation of osoto gari in vids online, i always thought it was a different throw that i'm not familiar with, like osoto otosh,or osoto gaki, and it is taught like that, uh i never knew...

That's a good eye, the throw varied depending on what his opponent gave him. Ideally it's finished as drop, or otoshi. It's the shortest way to the floor. gari, gaki, otoshi, all dependent on the way your opponent reacts. What is telling though is the entry. A good compitetion osoto doesn't use that first step. You use movement to get the foot in the right place then turn and step around. That's what every video I've ever seen Yamashita demonstrates and also what he articulates in his book.

[Oneiros]

No to hijack this thread, but I recognized that throws are not really covered that much in the Gracie Barra I train in ...

Is that the norm for Brazillian Jiu Jitsu?

I dont want to disrespect because they are really the shite on the ground (man sometimes I fell my hand falls off because of me tapping so much ;-) )
but throws are not covered that much.... (takedowns (double leg etc are but most of the time we start "on the butt" ^^ )
________
Portable Vaporizer Reviews (http://vaporizers.net/portable-vaporizers)

[danjr]

ya Oneiros, we're talking about Judo. If your gym offers a judo class, these throws should be covered there. Otherwise, our BJJ class will only practice stand-up stuff once in a blue moon when not many people show up.

[Ari Bolden]

No to hijack this thread, but I recognized that throws are not really covered that much in the Gracie Barra I train in ...

Is that the norm for Brazillian Jiu Jitsu?

I dont want to disrespect because they are really the shite on the ground (man sometimes I fell my hand falls off because of me tapping so much ;-) )
but throws are not covered that much.... (takedowns (double leg etc are but most of the time we start "on the butt" ^^ )


Every system has flaws, BJJ is no exception. And until MMA adds weapons work, ukemi, and pure self defense, I don't think they'll ever been one. Problem is, crossing training is great and combining martial skill sets is where its at (for me JJJ and 10Pjj/BJJ) but it's the old saying:

Jack of all trades, master of none.

Would you like to be good at several things or fantasitc at just one? Everyone one is different. Who knows?

For me, if I had to choose just one art, I would have say it would be JJJ because of what it covers. Now, thank god I don't have to do that!!!! :D

[CEB]

No to hijack this thread, but I recognized that throws are not really covered that much in the Gracie Barra I train in ...

Is that the norm for Brazillian Jiu Jitsu?

I dont want to disrespect because they are really the shite on the ground (man sometimes I fell my hand falls off because of me tapping so much ;-) )
but throws are not covered that much.... (takedowns (double leg etc are but most of the time we start "on the butt" ^^ )

What grade are you? If your school is following the program guidelines you should start most of your classes with throws. (blue belt program and above). In the advance program you do a lot of throws.

In the beginner classes all you do is the ocassion single leg or double leg thingy.


I personally like the way the syllabus is worked out. It is kind of neat. I could be in San Diego or Texas or Illinois and I have a pretty good idea of what we will be working on that week. All I have to do is check the wall before I leave.

[CEB]

Last night we drilled the heck out of Uchimata in the advanced class.

We did O-goshi ( japanese hip toss :D ) in the beginner class. But there is very little flying lessons occuring in the beginner class.

[Oneiros]

I am a JJJ Guy mostly... so I covered all the throws in the Gokyo ...
^^
I started in the Barra a few months ago and as far not one throw... - but I can tell you - they played with me more or less on the ground in the beginning - quite a wakeup call...
________
Weedtracker (http://dispensaries.org/)

[CEB]

That is not good. They are not following the program. Many if not most of the Self-Defenses that should be taught in the beginner curriculum include a takedown or throw. All classes should include a self-defense lesson.

But with your background that may be the best for format for you.

[flying gogo-plata]

That is not good. They are not following the program. Many if not most of the Self-Defenses that should be taught in the beginner curriculum include a takedown or throw. All classes should include a self-defense lesson.

But with your background that may be the best for format for you.

i find that very few schools teach many takedowns, in the 3months i've been at mine we've learned 3 takedowns, and non of them were more traditional style throws they were like conservative versions of wrestling takedowns (i mean the tweaked em so their not so risky as far as being submitted goes) and the guys who've been to other gyms say that they don't work takedowns either

[CEB]

In Gracie Barra there is a standardized 16 week cycling/repeating program that teaches the essential basics though not all schools follow it I guess.

There is a weekly self defense lesson, and a couple of weekly ground techniques then specifity training. After 13 weeks you repeat the same lessons. The self-defense lesson often has a throw or takedown or takedown defense. If you go to clas 2 or times a week you get to cover the weeks lessons 2 or 3 times.

I will never quit going to the basic class. I reinforces the essential elements of the system.

Our advanced class always start with some sort of throw. This week it is Uchimata.

[flying gogo-plata]

In Gracie Barra there is a standardize 13 week cycling/repeating program that teaches the essential basics though not all schools follow it I guess.

There is a weekly self defense lesson, and a couple of weekly ground techniques then specifity training. After 13 weeks you repeat the same lessons. The self-defense lesson often has a throw or takedown or takedown defense. If you go to clas 2 or times a week you get to cover the weeks lessons 2 or 3 times.

I will never quit going to the basic class. I reinforces the essential elements of the system.

The our advance class always start with some sort of throw. This week it is Uchimata.
oh that sounds cool having a set schedule like that, our instructors will usually focus on a different position each week and teach like 4 escapes and 4 submissions over the couse of that week, but it's kinda random