Opinions on training with BB's

[jiggsy]

I recently caught up with all the drama on MMA.tv, and I posted on a different thread regarding training with BB, but I want to see what everyone else's opionion is on this topic is.

IMO, learning techniques and basics from blues and purples is awesome, but if you are that high blue/purple and are not regularily training/rolling with a BB your game will plateau and progression from purple to brown to black will be very slow. In addition, you will not be regularily fixing holes in your game and/or bad habits.

What do you guys think?

[JayC]

BB meaning Black or Brown Belt?

I think it's perfectly fine to be rolling with either if you're a high blue/purple, but I do also agree that you have to be training with a black belt some of the time to iron out those bad habits.

But to be honest, at high blue/purple, you shouldn't really have that many bad habits.

[jiggsy]

I agree that you shouldn't have that may bad habits. However, if you are a purple belt, and have only blues and below to train with you may start to create bad habits.

I also believe that to it's good to get your ass kicked on the mat. You always can learn by someone schooling you a bit:D

[JayC]

Ah right, I see what you mean. If you have other purples and above to train then fine, but i doubt you necessarily NEED a black belt

[jiggsy]

But do you think it's benificial to have access, on a regular basis, to a BB?

[JayC]

Of course, but if I was a purple belt I would settle for a very good brown belt if I had to

[LongV]

neither brown or black belts are beneficial, I get my ass kicked in the first 5 secs. Nothing against BB, but I cant learn crap in 5 secs.

[JayC]

Usually a BB will help you in sparring

[CEB]

Nonsense. How many years you kids been training. Regardless of rank you must always be diligent or bad habits will rare up their ugly heads. Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Guitar, etc.... doesn't matter. :D

[Ari Bolden]

Jiggsy:

Good question!

Let's look at the fact that there are hundreds of affiliates across the world. This means that they are blue/purple/brown belts in a BJJ system. Many of these instructors have trained under black belts and learned to a certain level. The problem is, if you live in Ohio (sorry my Ohioian brothers:D) and you live in a city with 10 000 people, you ain't gonna have a BB open a school there).

So, your option is to train with the blue or purple that has open a school.

The real question is: Can an affiliate learn at the same speed as someone under direct instruction of a black belt. Again, that depends on factors. My gut reaction is 'no, he can't'. But if the bb has 50 people on the mat and has his blue belts overseeing everything and you are getting more hands on instruction under a purple, those factors could cancel each other out.

You also take in these factors:

-the natural ability of the person learning (do they catch on quick?)
-the former martial art training the have
-when you roll, you are always trying to fill in the spots and bad habits. Other students may point them out to you. You may also discover them on your own (the ongoing joke in jiu jitsu is that no move is new but you CAN REDISCOVER them by yourself...it happens ALL THE TIME).
-Also, speaking from my point of view: I teach 10thPJJ and have a JJJ background. I bring different things to the table than the local black belt does. It doesn't mean that the BB could teach me something and isn't great at what he does. we have just chosen different paths.

I have a student that trains with me that came from a MMA/sub grappling background. He did it for 7 years and he has NO BELTS. But he has several fights, both MMA and grappling and did really well. Why? Because he had been training in the art for a long time. When we roll, he shows me things that work for him and we talk about the 'openings' in our games. Wrestlers do very well for that reason as well.

The whole belt system is riddled with problems. People compare colors across the board. There are white belts that are crazy nuts and tap another schools purple. Or you can take an MMA example where ATT Cole Miller taped out Black Belt Jorge Gurgel.

Usually, when you get belted, your instructor slots you in where he thinks you fit within HIS organization. Standards are so different at different schools. I had a BJJ white belt that use to train with me (3 stripe white belt). He had been a white belts for 5 years. His instructor was very slow to advance him but his technique was fantastic.

My ramble...not sure if I answered anything there....lol

[BadKarmaRising]

The world of BJJ continues to confound me. :-D

[Dannicus]

From my personal experience, you can learn a huge amount from training with a purple belt. My instructor is a purple under Royce Gracie, he is very, very good at jiu jitsu. We had this discussion today in fact. He pointed out to me, because I had voiced my frustration with being 8 months into my training and still going in every morning and doing guard pass to side control, over and over and over again. He said to me, that just in the last month and a half my guard passing has become very solid and clean technique. He told me, and was very honest with me, that if my goal was to become a NAGA champ, that his school really wasn't the best place for me. But he definitely didn't want guys who trained with him, to go out to other schools, and look foolish, that they didn't know the basics.

It's a long ramble, (I think Tom's ADD is becoming a bit of an epidemic, we may need to get the CDC in here) But long story short, there is a plethora of things I could be learning from him.

Now as for when you reach that purple belt level, yes I agree that studying under someone the same belt level with you is a bit foolish. You can still learn a things from each other, but you still need the watchful eye of someone who is higher ranked than you.

[jiggsy]

neither brown or black belts are beneficial, I get my ass kicked in the first 5 secs. Nothing against BB, but I cant learn crap in 5 secs.

Then you havn't been rolling with verygood BB's. Here is a vid of a flow drill. Your BB instructor should be rolling with you like this, and not tapping your ass in 5 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eXs0Xue03w

[jiggsy]

Jiggsy:

Good question!

Let's look at the fact that there are hundreds of affiliates across the world. This means that they are blue/purple/brown belts in a BJJ system. Many of these instructors have trained under black belts and learned to a certain level. The problem is, if you live in Ohio (sorry my Ohioian brothers:D) and you live in a city with 10 000 people, you ain't gonna have a BB open a school there).

I completely understand, and agree that if that's all you have to train with that is better than none. Furthermore, I think you can learn the basics really well from Blues, and purples. However, if you live in a city with guys who are brown and black belts, would you benefit from training with them on a regular basis?

So, your option is to train with the blue or purple that has open a school.

The real question is: Can an affiliate learn at the same speed as someone under direct instruction of a black belt. Again, that depends on factors. My gut reaction is 'no, he can't'. But if the bb has 50 people on the mat and has his blue belts overseeing everything and you are getting more hands on instruction under a purple, those factors could cancel each other out.

I agree that sometimes, you can get over looked in large classes, but I actually prefer the larger class. We often have 50 people on the mat and the vib is "get to work," and smaller classes there is alway more chit chat than mat work.

You also take in these factors:

-the natural ability of the person learning (do they catch on quick?)
-the former martial art training the have
-when you roll, you are always trying to fill in the spots and bad habits. Other students may point them out to you. You may also discover them on your own (the ongoing joke in jiu jitsu is that no move is new but you CAN REDISCOVER them by yourself...it happens ALL THE TIME).
-Also, speaking from my point of view: I teach 10thPJJ and have a JJJ background. I bring different things to the table than the local black belt does. It doesn't mean that the BB could teach me something and isn't great at what he does. we have just chosen different paths.

I have a student that trains with me that came from a MMA/sub grappling background. He did it for 7 years and he has NO BELTS. But he has several fights, both MMA and grappling and did really well. Why? Because he had been training in the art for a long time. When we roll, he shows me things that work for him and we talk about the 'openings' in our games. Wrestlers do very well for that reason as well.

The whole belt system is riddled with problems. People compare colors across the board. There are white belts that are crazy nuts and tap another schools purple. Or you can take an MMA example where ATT Cole Miller taped out Black Belt Jorge Gurgel.

Usually, when you get belted, your instructor slots you in where he thinks you fit within HIS organization. Standards are so different at different schools. I had a BJJ white belt that use to train with me (3 stripe white belt). He had been a white belts for 5 years. His instructor was very slow to advance him but his technique was fantastic.

My ramble...not sure if I answered anything there....lol


Kind of but not really. Sounded like a Tom ADD moment:D

The question was if you have access to a brown or black would you benefit from training with them on a regular basis?

[Ari Bolden]

short answer-yes. I think I did say that in the above thread but it was surrounded by much ADD.

[swgillan]

I think there is a lot of validity in your question.

I think that definitely training with people that are "above" you in skill is pretty much one of the best ways of improving (that and constant repetition). I am going to make a little disconnect on linking skill with belt level as I find that even as equal ranks, there can be quite a bit of difference in skill, which you can also gain from. Hypothetically, if there is only 1 Black or Brown belt in town, and I am not comfortable with them, or their style (for whatever reason), then I think it can actually be a disservice, but, that's me.

I think a subsidiary question that I would like to add is: do you think that there is a benefit progressing along with a peer (regular training partners, etc) as opposed to individually?

I like BJJ / Grappling in that when everything is on the line, it is solely with the individual, but also, for me, it is rewarding to know that the people around me are also having a level of success.

[LongV]

Then you havn't been rolling with verygood BB's. Here is a vid of a flow drill. Your BB instructor should be rolling with you like this, and not tapping your ass in 5 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eXs0Xue03w

so true...(sigh) if only my instructor was less strict on me...(daydreams then watches the vid then daydreams then watches the vid...continues this process for the next 20 min) :rolleyes:

[JRT6]

My current instructor is a purple and my last is one and I will put those guys up against anyone. At Relson seminars it is obvious he is very pleased with the way my instructor is running his school.

[prodigypenn]

ive trained with aq blue belt when i first joined my school becuz he ran the class that i came to check out but he trains under a blackbelt himself who started the school, i guess im lucky to live in a relatively big city where theres several blackbelts and schools to train under altho no rlly big names like gracie or machado or w/e but still 2 world class blackbelts who teach within 10 miles of my house 1 a world champion and the other a black belt who trained at the gracie humaita in brazil under royler gracie, and pan-ams blackbelt champ

[cree357]

I agree that training w/ higher belts(I am a white) is a great way to have bad habits that may work against lesser opponents exposed however it takes a particular kind of higher belt. There are several higher blues and a purple who I train with who seem shell bent on getting as many submissions as possible. There have been sessions where I felt like I was just trying to survive(which I admit can be beneficial to learning calm breathing and perseverance) and I was glad to get with people more my level to try to actually apply some of the bjj I was learning. kind of off the subject just wanted to ramble a bit.