Can't deal with strong wrestler

[Carl_AK]

Hey, I'm a white belt, I've been Practicing for about 3 months, before that I was a big UFC fan so I came in with a lot of "arm-chair-quarterback" knowledge, but other than that I have no wrestling/martial arts background.

I've been sparing with a couple of guys at class, one is a 160lbs wrestler who is a brown belt, and the other is a 240lb wrestler who is a green belt. I do pretty good against the brown belt. I'm 250lbs (should be 210) and I can manhandle him pretty well, and work myself into sweeps & submissions. I almost got my 1st gogoplata on him yesterday, but class started before I could sink it well.

The 240lb dude is another matter. Everytime I tie up with him I feel like a little kid wrestling a gorilla. I cant break his grip, I can't move him around, and if he ever gets a hold of my head, I feel like he's going to rip it off. My ears were bleeding after one of his headlocks yesterday. Does anybody have any advice for dealing with someone who is massively stronger than you, and has years of experience throughing bodies around?

[HURLEYABB]

Wow bro you guys are going hard! My best advice is to stop going 100mph and just slow it down so you can focus on your technique. If he overpowers you every time time dont fight it, try and position yourself so that you might be able to pull butterfly guard. With a big guy like the one you are referring to it can feel like he weighs a ton if you cross your legs and let him lay in your traditional guard (legs crossed), butterfly will help to support some of his weight and might allow some sweeps from there too. There is actually a great sweep from butterfly gaurd here in the vids section, check it out it might help you out. Good luck!

[Carl_AK]

JWow bro you guys are going hard! My best advice is to stop going 100mph and just slow it down so you can focus on your technique. If he overpowers you every time time dont fight it, try and position yourself so that you might be able to pull butterfly guard. With a big guy like the one you are referring to it can feel like he weighs a ton if you cross your legs and let him lay in your traditional guard (legs crossed), butterfly will help to support some of his weight and might allow some sweeps from there too. There is actually a great sweep from butterfly gaurd here in the vids section, check it out it might help you out. Good luck!

I've been trying to slow down. I already had a seperation in chest about 2 months ago. A different guy (about 220lbs) pushed hard on chest while spinning for a arm bar, and I heard a lot POP. I'm about 85% recovered from it now.

Anyway back to the big bear of a wrestler. I've already started slowing down. I try not to freak out, and blow all my gas at once. But the same thing always happens. He gets a hold of me, puts me on my back, and smothers me. Half the time I tap just because I'm already winded & I can't breath with his bulk on me.

The two things I think I need most help with is keeping him from getting a hold of my head, and keeping him from smothering me when he gets on top of me.

[Ryan]

do you pull guard or does he just take you down? If you pull guard then stop it. but if he takes you down then try working on your sprawl techniques. When I wrestled I would always try to sprawl and then I would work my way around back or to the side. If he holds onto you and you can't break the grip I suggest grabbing back and do false resistance and then back off, false resistance back off and then when you do your next false resistance put your foot behind his ankle and push him backwards. He should trip and you will land in his guard or maybe he will go to his stomach and you could take his back.

[Ryan]

when I say false resistance I mean you put resistance on him but remain with most of your pressure leaning back to avoid a throw.

[Carl_AK]

do you pull guard or does he just take you down? If you pull guard then stop it. but if he takes you down then try working on your sprawl techniques. When I wrestled I would always try to sprawl and then I would work my way around back or to the side. If he holds onto you and you can't break the grip I suggest grabbing back and do false resistance and then back off, false resistance back off and then when you do your next false resistance put your foot behind his ankle and push him backwards. He should trip and you will land in his guard or maybe he will go to his stomach and you could take his back.

We generally don't start standing. I'll start with him in my guard, me in his guard, me in side control . . . but I just cant control the guy. Maybe I shouldn't expect to with just three months of Jujitsu and no prior grappleing experience. This guy has been doing this for years and is in his prime.

His Jujisu knowlege seems limited. He doesn't know what a Gogoplata is, never heard of the rubber guard, didn't know what a heel hook was till a few weeks ago. He's just a REALLY good wrestler. I guess I was hoping there was a few tricks to dealling with experienced wrestlers. They tend to do this, then you do that. That sort of thing. Some sort of bad wrestling habits that might carry over when they try BJJ.

[HURLEYABB]

It def sounds like your instructor might be a little new to teaching Jiu Jitsu. Are there any other schools in the area that you might be able to check out?

So you cant keep big man from getting a hold of your head huh? I have had the same problem at times, unfortunately its something you will have to learn to avoid. I know thats a crappy way to look at things but the more he does it to you the more you will get used to it and be able to deal with the situation, this is actually going to make you better in the future. Have you asked your instructor for any escapes from the positions that are bothering you? My best advice is to keep him occupied by grabbing the collars of his gi and trying cokes or just to disrupt his center of gravity when he's in your guard. This guy will eventually run into the same problem you have and that is one day he is going to roll with someone who is stronger and will put him on his back.Technique, technique, technique, dill positions/escapes as much as possible and for the time being restrain from rolling all out until you have done a hand full of sweeps, and escapes about 200 times a piece. Big wrestlers are def hard to roll against but as you improve they will get a little easier to deal with. Hope some of this helps you out. Oh yeah check out the vids section on here, they have some really great techniques that can help you out. Good Luck!

[Ryan]

Well, I can tell you from being a wrestler that we tend to leave bodyparts exposed like legs, arms, neck and ankles. Unfortunately though he has BJJ experience and may not leave things open as much. Try a sweep or kimura

[prodigypenn]

hmm im in a similar position as you, altho the weight is much lower, im about 198-200 lbs and my friend is about 185, but hes much stronger than me, and when he grabs on its pretty difficult to get out. When i first started trying to practice jiu-jitsu hed always come up and wrestle with me and pin me to the floor. Altho his weight was less he was much stronger and had more experience in grappling, all i rlly knew was to do guard and an armbar , needless to say that i often found myslef stuck with him pushing down on me, and trying to pass guard. when dealing with sum1 whos got a stronger grip than u its all about leverage and technique, if he grabs onto me i try to circle around his arm and break his grip with my whoel arm. And learn to use your legs more, i try to use my legs to push or pull him so i relieve pressure or gain more control.
personally i dont mind going against bigger guys, but i cant keep up with the small guys, and when they lock sumthin in all that boniness makes it alot harder to pull out

[VerticalX]

Three months is not much time so of course patience is a virtue. I know grappling with a wrestler can be very frustrating but the great part is you get to learn proper defense for someone larger than you. I find one of the hardest things about fighting wresters is there shoot is pretty quick and low, I would try to put some time in working proper sprawl technique. The sprawl works amazingly well in setting up Guillotine's and The Anaconda choke. If he goes low push the arm and try to wrap in for control. As for crushing you on top, be unexpected. Spin for a leg, kneebar, or yes use butterfly guard that is an excellent way to keep the pressure off.

So keep all the suggestions in mind, and honestly Im surprised your teacher hasn't helped you develop against larger opponents.

Good luck.

[GrCh35]

Is it Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that your taking? If so you shouldn't be using your strength. BJJ is about leverage. Yea there might be a move or so that you might wanna use a little muscle, but not for all of them. I myself am a big guy & a lot of the people I've gone against come at me hard because of my size. But I work on the leverage side of BJJ. Once we're rolled a few times they get the picture & take it easy.

[Rangemaster]

Is it Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that your taking? If so you shouldn't be using your strength. BJJ is about leverage. Yea there might be a move or so that you might wanna use a little muscle, but not for all of them. I myself am a big guy & a lot of the people I've gone against come at me hard because of my size. But I work on the leverage side of BJJ. Once we're rolled a few times they get the picture & take it easy.

I agree... this about leverage. I wrestled greco- roman and free style, so I feel your pain.( aguy I work out with now can just left me right off him if I don't tie up his legs and i 'm 225 )
start thinking about " what is he giving me to work with?" He has to be leaving something out there .
I'm working on submitting from guard right now...why try to get the mount if I can bust a kimura or simple cross gi choke from guard?
relax and go with his strength...see where it takes you. ;)

[Carl_AK]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I'm just to new to understand the whole leverage thing. I do really well against guys I can man-handle. I tend to just power through stuff, but I know enough about BJJ, to know that's not how its supposed to work. I think that once I get in better shape I'll be able to slow down and work through this stuff better. I started BJJ at 273, I'm now 250, and it's starting to get easier to roll. But still when I get tied up with him, and he smothers me, I'm just so gassed I tap because I can't take the interuption to my breathing.

I'll keep all this in mind. Butterfly-guard, spin for legs, look for sweeps, and of course I'll keep getting in shape & learning from all these great vids. I'll let you all know how I do with him as the weeks progress! :)

Thanks!
-Carl-

[Ryan]

Carl- try and find (or maybe I will later) Royce Gracie vs AkeBono (sp). The difference in weight is 200-300 lbs easy (not sure exact weight) so size doesn't matter that much in BJJ. Gracie tapped him out!

Question, when he is in your guard or putting pressure on you Do you panick? Or do you stay calm and try to work your way out or towards a sub? Panicking can cause unneeded stress and can burn much needed energy.

[Carl_AK]

Question, when he is in your guard or putting pressure on you Do you panick? Or do you stay calm and try to work your way out or towards a sub? Panicking can cause unneeded stress and can burn much needed energy.

I try not to panic. I know not to panic. But if I'm gassed & he puts his 240 on my face, then yeah I usually panic. I think that'll ease up once I'm in shape. In highschool track, I used to be able to run a race, and immediately hold my breath for 30 seconds. Now, I need someone to wheel me out oxygen. That's why I freak out when he stacks me, and I'm winded. I do try not to though.

[GrCh35]

Ride it out. Remember that a true wrestler will not know submission unless he's learned some. Let him get a little winded, than take over.

[VerticalX]

I try not to panic. I know not to panic. But if I'm gassed & he puts his 240 on my face, then yeah I usually panic. I think that'll ease up once I'm in shape. In highschool track, I used to be able to run a race, and immediately hold my breath for 30 seconds. Now, I need someone to wheel me out oxygen. That's why I freak out when he stacks me, and I'm winded. I do try not to though.

When He stacks you thats the perfect time to go for a double heel trip. Clasp your hands over his heels and push up with your legs. Then go for the mount.

Also if he's in your guard, extend your body. Wrap your legs tight and push towards him digging your shoulders into the ground and extend your midsections, that tranfers most of his weight onto your hips instead of your chest.

If anything, that gives you time to breathe and then work position.
Good Luck

[Rangemaster]

Also ,
if he is taller than you ... try to keep him doubled up... cutting down on his ability to use his longer torso (legs,arms etc. ) against you. Head lock with a leg, banana spilt and the like are good for this.

conversly, if he is shorter than you.. stretch him out and isolate his limbs. limit his ability to use his compact structure (center) against you. heel hooks, kimura...anything that stretchs the body out is good.

good luck:)

[Dannicus]

Just thought I would help out. Royce Gracie vs Akebono (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4754358887413654428) Thats some pretty sick work. A great example of how to deal with a much larger opponent. I may not be super knowledgeable about BJJ yet. But I can sure do web searches with the best of them. :)

[Hadaka Jime]

Hey i looked at this topic, and found it very similar to the topic made by Andy, so im going to tell you exactly what i told him

a huge thing is transitioning from technique to technique...

If you watch Frank Shamrock in his win by heel hook over Dan Henderson (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUanusYxDhE) you see he throws 3 submissions in a row and ends up landing 1 and winning the match over a great wrestler, making it look easy

another thing is, sometimes you must be stubborn trying to get a technique, and sometimes no when you lost the hold and move to the next technique

EXAMPLE: when i go for a kimura from my guard, and am stopped, i roll and push and go into an omoplata or allmost an inverted kimura similar to what royce gracie did in his win over akebono (http://video.google.com/videoplay?do... ch&plindex=0)
you can see he tries for the original kimura and shows it but inverts and goes with a different angle using the legs to lock in first then finish with the arms

I started doing jiu jitsu with my brother, when i was around 14... and i was 140 (strong/athletic) and he was 205 (strong/slower) so i was able to get his back standing and i have very strong legs and my main takedowns are slams that usually land me with the back position, so bam...

i'd go right for the RNC when i hit the ground and worked on getting strong arms and working on choking power... similar to eddie bravos lesson on the practicing chokes on your knee etc... if you can, while standing go for the back get a slam and fall hard ontop of your oppenents back, RNC hooks in sink it deep and put them to sleep

Hopefully something up there helped, and good luck

-Hadaka Jime-

[Carl_AK]

This guy left town for work shortly after I made this thread, and just got back a week ago. While he was gone, I went from 250lbs (already down from 273) to about 230. Now that I am in a bit better shape, I don't get as claustraphobic when he stacks me, or crushes me in a headlock. I've swept him a couple times, and taken his back a couple of times, I still can't tap him though.

My most recent frustration was trying to put an invisible collar on him. His chest was just to big. See my post in Submissions101 forum.

I'm not worrying about it anymore. He is stronger than me, and his technique is as good or better than mine, so I can't expect after 6 months of training, to be beating guy who has been wrestling for 6 years & Jujitsu for 2. I'm definitely getting better. I'm working on my leg strength, lower back strength, core strength, grip strength. I'll get there. I think it would be hard to get better, if there wasn't at least one guy you spar with on a regular basis who is a lot better than you.

[Ryan]

They always say that you can only get as good as the best person at your gym. If your rolling with a bunch of fish then your not going to be as good as if you were rolling with someone with tons of experience. Keep rolling with him until you can tap him and then find someone else to roll with that is better then him. Next thing you know you will be the best in your gym.

[CEB]

Join the club. Lee beat the beejeebees out of me last Thursday..... I think it was Thursday. Darn days just run together anymore.

[boboplata]

They always say that you can only get as good as the best person at your gym. If your rolling with a bunch of fish then your not going to be as good as if you were rolling with someone with tons of experience. Keep rolling with him until you can tap him and then find someone else to roll with that is better then him. Next thing you know you will be the best in your gym.


+1, i can attest to that, in our batch i'm the bigger, taller guy ( i have 5-7 lbs advantage) so all the guys assume i was the strongest & started doing lifts to compensate, while i on the otherhand being the tallest did squats & lunges. they may have stronger arms but legs will always be the strongest, & with that knowledge you'll be more confident with your guard game. guys who are 2-3 yrs my senior in the gym will always pawn me, but i'm getting better everytime i roll with them which is most important.