Do you think MMA translates well in 'real world self defnse?"

[Ari Bolden]

Do you think MMA traslates well as a real world self defense? Are there other arts which you believe do well in the street? Is there a difference between ring competition and the street?

What do think of statements like:

"I'd just get on top and ground and pound him!"
"I'd just throw on a triangle or kimura his ass"
"I'd use my muay thai and mess him up."

Curious...I have my opinion but I am going to wait to hear from you guys first.

cheers
Ari

[prodigypenn]

MMa works ok in certain types of situations, like 1 on 1 bar fights or sumthin, but out on the street when sum1 tried to carjack u or w/e theyre not gonna cuss you out and take a swing at you, theyll take you by surprise and possibly pull a weapon on you, or have friends to help them. Saying ill ground and pound him while his buddies r standing there to back him up doesnt make any real sense.

Sum traditional martial arts teach basic street defense for similar situations, but if things dont work out as planned then u can end up not knowing wtf to do next. The most effective techniques for actual street defense rarely fall into 1 single style of martial art, but knowing effective techniques from several aspects such as a good ground game as well as how to duck and dodge wild swings or w/e and getting in close to finish ppl off or w/e. Jeet kune do is supposedly a good defense art but sumthing like krav maga would prolly b more effective.

In the end tho its all about mental preparation, and training. you react how u train, so if ur trained to break sum1s bones u will prolly do so, and if u train to go in and viciously take ppl out then finish with a head stomp thats what u will do.

Theres also the law to take into consideration, if ur a pro MMA fighter and u kick sum guys ass for trying to mug you, depending on how severely he was beaten the law could take the criminals side, or if they feel u were overly violent in ur defense they can prosecute you.
Your background is taken into comsideration when sumthing occurs where u have to use ur skills to defend urself, so being an MMA fighter who doesnt look like chuck lidell or tito ortiz (that is to say very intimidating looking) may work against you in court.

[Ryan]

Ohio is making new laws to benefit the victim and pretty much give unlimited rights to the victim if attacked.

Now, Do I think MMA translates well into "real world self defense"? Yes, I really do. I think certain aspects work better then others in certain situations like if its 1 on 2 or more then BJJ or wrestling isn't what you want to use. Jeet Kune Do or some other martial art where a good distance is needed would probably be pretty good for a multi-person attack. Muay Thai would be good if you needed a quick KO or knock down to get away quickly.

I have been in fights where I have pretty much been allowed a 1 on 1 fair fight so I have no experience with multiple attackers.

Another reason I say MMA is good for protection is that everything you do in a fight is pretty much a martial art or combat sport of some kind. Punches are taught is several martial arts disciplines as well as kicking, kneeing, elbowing, throwing, choking or any joint manipulation or takedown.

[prodigypenn]

but theres a reason for having such an attitude, i mean i can understand if sum guy tries to jack ur stuff then yea you would b pissed, but beating him half to death over material possessions doesnt make you any better of a person then the criminal. just cuz u can beat sum1 to death doesnt mean u should try, unless he raped/killed sum1 IMO.

[Tom Gavrilos]

Absolutely! BUT to me its a matter of %age.
"I'd just get on top and ground and pound him!"
"I'd just throw on a triangle or kimura his ass"
"I'd use my muay thai and mess him up."



Honestly in a street fight first think concerete NOT mats.
I would never try to Throw a triangle on a guy in fact I would only use my BJJ to sweep and get back on top unless the guy was some great wrestler etc..
Its likely you WILL get picked up and slammed in a high adrenalin situation.

Pure Strikers can KO most average people of course but they risk being KOd as well.

I truly believe (based on the fact that every idiot can at least throw a haymaker vs. only 1% of the US AT BEST knows how to truly fight on the ground) that in a one on one street fight mounting someone and reigning blows to either KO or back is given for a choke out is the best percentage ruote and does ABSOLUTELY work!
In fact this has worked in slums of brazil and cuntless street fights for 100+ years.
Watching UFC 1-3 or so or "Gracies in Action) should help confrim this. Like most of the public now those people did not know how to handle ground fighting and even though they were bigger, stronger, and some great strikers they all froze on the grond.

1 on 2 or more! Id rather be Bas Rutten than Marcelo Garcia...
You are completely vulnerable to the second attacker when you are trying to submit or even pound anyone on the ground.

In this case I would never try some of the stuff Ari can do or Krav Maga Aikido etc.. simply because Im not good enought at it. It is not muscle memory yet. I think you would have to been practicing at full speed for a long time to pull some Segal Movies type stuff out...

I would attack the bigger of the two as best I could standing never letting one get behind me and out of my vision.... (adding attackers becomes exponentially more difficult)

[Ryan]

but theres a reason for having such an attitude, i mean i can understand if sum guy tries to jack ur stuff then yea you would b pissed, but beating him half to death over material possessions doesnt make you any better of a person then the criminal. just cuz u can beat sum1 to death doesnt mean u should try, unless he raped/killed sum1 IMO.

I can see your point about it making you no better then the criminal but how do you know your not in danger until after the attack? What I mean is this, if your being attacked for your car then how do you know he doesn't have a knife in his pocket? a gun in his waist or a crow bar in his sleeve? You don't until he runs away or pulls it out. The perp may have thought he could get the vehicle without using the knife or gun. All you have to say in court is that YOU feared for your life and that is really all you need if you were the one being attacked.

[ijj24]

MMA can't hurt, you're surely better off with any amount of knowledge in fighting/combat than to just try something random. But how realistic is it? I think you have to be able to use more than one aspect of fighting. Sure you know striking and grappling, but some people lean more towards one or the other. I think you need to be able to get some good hits in and then transition quickly into a good, reliable hold or submission. And if there's more than one, you need to get a KO quick, or else they'll all just get pissed off.

[prodigypenn]

I can see your point about it making you no better then the criminal but how do you know your not in danger until after the attack? What I mean is this, if your being attacked for your car then how do you know he doesn't have a knife in his pocket? a gun in his waist or a crow bar in his sleeve? You don't until he runs away or pulls it out. The perp may have thought he could get the vehicle without using the knife or gun. All you have to say in court is that YOU feared for your life and that is really all you need if you were the one being attacked.

thats a totally valid point, im not arguing that, but what im saying is that just cuz u think ur in danger doesnt mean the court will see it that way. unless they do find a gun or w/e on him, but even then if its not pointed at you it cant b considered a threat. The lawyers will twist the case into a guy who was down on his luck and was desperate and did sumthing stupid, and was beaten almost to death by a professional fighter who could b considered potentially deadly

[prodigypenn]

I can see your point about it making you no better then the criminal but how do you know your not in danger until after the attack? What I mean is this, if your being attacked for your car then how do you know he doesn't have a knife in his pocket? a gun in his waist or a crow bar in his sleeve? You don't until he runs away or pulls it out. The perp may have thought he could get the vehicle without using the knife or gun. All you have to say in court is that YOU feared for your life and that is really all you need if you were the one being attacked.

thats a totally valid point, im not arguing that, but what im saying is that just cuz u think ur in danger doesnt mean the court will see it that way. unless they do find a gun or w/e on him, but even then if its not pointed at you it cant b considered a threat. The lawyers will twist the case into a guy who was down on his luck and was desperate and did sumthing stupid, and was beaten almost to death by a professional fighter who could b considered potentially deadly

[Tallsilkyslim]

From the expierence I have bouncing and being involved in the martial arts for 7 or 8 years, I would say that MMA type of fighting works in SOME situations, but to truly feel safe on the street and have enough options to fit into whatever particular scenario is being presented to you, it is extremely important to incorporate traditional arts and weapons training into your arsenal. When you are confronted one on one with no weapons involved or other people, then my belief is jiu jitsu REALLY gets the job done. However, I myself dont like to risk whether or not some of his buddies are around the corner or if said attacker has a weapon on him. I personally would try to stay as humane as possible i.e. submissions. But, in the heat of the moment I dont want to risk my health or life, and generally resort to what I call "soft targeting". A hand rake to the eyes, or a technique I call "Monkey Reach For Peaches" tends to get the job done. On the street there are not rules like there are in MMA and its very important to treat the situation as such. Two thumbs to the eyes, or a hammersrike to the groin are highly effective. If they dont work, You still have your grappling as a back up plan. As far as weapons, its important to know how to defend against a weapon as well as wield your own. If they have a weapon, train your mind to think "Im going to get cut/hit/smashed." That way it doesnt surprise you when it happens. Just learn to follow through with your game plan. Now in my opinion the best weapon to train with is a stick or sticks i.e. filipino escrima. Wherever you are, chances are there is a stick laying around. If your playing pool, things get out of hand, snap a pool stick over your knee. Now you have double sticks. Ok im rambling on now, my wife is out of town and im bored. So my advice is free because that is what its worth. Stay safe and remember that you can end most fights before they start if you have the right attitude and mantality, and carry yourself as such. And Ill leave everyone with a quote. "Hope for nothing, fear for nothing."

[Ryan]

Not sure I trust a judge that works in a building with tons of cops and metal detectors to tell me when I should have or shouldn't have protected myself. If I didn't when I should have then I may not be around to testify in court. So, why risk death or permanent injury over something as subjective as self defense?

I agree with above poster..... defend at all cost and take all measures needed. Groin attacks are good and so are eye gouges. Weapons fighting is martial arts as is hand to hand combat so technically everything in a fight is remeniscent of martial arts.

[VerticalX]

I think so, MMA teaches you how to perform effectively in any position so you always have a fighting chance. I'm not saying that its gonna be extremely effective with an 8 on 1, but MMA does give you an edge

[Andy]

I think MMA does sort of give you an advantage, though not much. You might know more moves, positions, etc. but in MMA competitions, both of you are trained fighters, so you sort of know what to expect. On the street, you have no idea. If the guy's just going to start swinging wildly, kick, knee, pull something out, throw something at you, etc. Everything on a street fight is basically legal; nut-grabbing, kicking, whatever.

[Ryan]

Who are you most likely to encounter in a street fight where you need to defend yourself, Tank Abbott style or Matt Hughes style? Tank Abbott. But if you notice..... he lost a lot.

[Tom Gavrilos]

I think MMA does sort of give you an advantage, though not much. You might know more moves, positions, etc. but in MMA competitions, both of you are trained fighters, so you sort of know what to expect. On the street, you have no idea. If the guy's just going to start swinging wildly, kick, knee, pull something out, throw something at you, etc. Everything on a street fight is basically legal; nut-grabbing, kicking, whatever.

I have to disagree strongly here....In my experience bouncing and otherwise this is completely wrong. You are ready for everything training and its obvious when someone dosent know how to fight. Especially on the ground.

[Ari Bolden]

Did I open a can of worms here....:D

I'll wait to add my 2 cents still.....I like reading the answers...very interesting points of view....

[Tom Gavrilos]

Let me reword.

You are ready for everything WITHIN REASON when you train MMA in REAL TIME.
Obviously when knives and multiple people join the equation everything changes.

BUT I have seen enough "hilbilly haimaker"s and and lack of balance + confusion on the ground to tell you for sure that it becomes apparent very quickly in most cases if someone knows how to fight effectively or not.

Eye Gouging and hitting in the groin are shared tools. The person who has been put in more combative situations in the past i.e. training will in theory stay calmer and be able to defend and impliment this tactic more effectively in my opinion.

Think of how the average person would try to escape an eye gouge and how a trained fighter might. I know if I had no experience or training I wouldn't react the way I would now. Panic would surely set in and much faster.

[Ryan]

I have to disagree strongly here....In my experience bouncing and otherwise this is completely wrong. You are ready for everything training and its obvious when someone dosent know how to fight. Especially on the ground.

I agree with Tom. Especially in the street. Yes, you have no idea what your enemy knows and you have no idea what weapons he has but what is the likelihood he has experience in anymore then just fighting with punches? Also, when your enemy is fighting you, you have pretty much the same "feeling out" period that you would in a MMA fight.

Just look at the terrorist on the one flight that crashed in Pennsylvania. The terrorist was supposedly trained but people on the plane overtook him and won. Unfortunately there were already terrorists in the cock pit. What I am trying to say is that if you want to survive an attack you will pull out all stops but if your trained to fight then the chance of survival has just gone up.

[Andy]

But though you're trained to fight or have experience, sometimes that gets you cocky. You don't take fights as seriously, as you think that there's no competition between you two. Mount or closed guard might not work the way you wanted it to if they guys reaching to grab your nuts.

[Ryan]

But though you're trained to fight or have experience, sometimes that gets you cocky. You don't take fights as seriously, as you think that there's no competition between you two. Mount or closed guard might not work the way you wanted it to if they guys reaching to grab your nuts.

What? Keith Jardine has taught us not to be cocky...... ever.:D In a street fight, I would think a Mixed Martial Artist would be a little weary as our skill may get you in trouble. MMA people tend to want to get a fight over quickly so I don't think anyone is underestimated in an amatuer level. Now, do I think Chuck Liddell may take someone in a bar lightly?,,,, probably.

[prodigypenn]

but whos crazy enough to mess with chuck lidell? even if they live in a cave sumwhere and dont know about chuck lidell, but happened to come out for a drink where chuck is at, who would b crazy enough to mess with him? in the words of dana white "he looks like a f*ckin axe murderer"

[Ryan]

You would be surprised how many people would fight him just to say they fought Chuck Liddell. Also, do you remember in the 90's when all the guys in the school yard would say "I would let Mike Tyson hit me for a million dollars"? This is the same thing. Do you remember the guy that went to AKA to fight Koscheck?

[ptbeast]

Okay, I am new to these forums so I am late to this discussion. Even so, I would like to touch on a couple of points.

I am ex-cop, and in my experience, the skills learned training and competing in MMA translate very well into confrontations in the real world. What one needs to add is tactical awareness and tactical planning. What do I mean by that? If, for example, you put a partially standing attacker into an arm bar, you are likely to find your head cracked hard into a cement or wooden floor. It is not the same as the cage. Most moves can work in the real world, but when training you must ask yourself how whatever move you are practicing would translate into a real world encounter. When could you use it? When would it get you in trouble?

Likewise, think about how moves can be modified to meet real world threats. For example, I often hear people say that a grappler would be at a great disadvantage against multiple opponents. There is some truth to this, as if you are entangled on the floor with one person, his buddy is free to kick you, etc. On-the-other-hand, who says that just because one is a grappler that they have to go to the ground? Slamming a person to the ground or (my favorite) "introducing" them to solid objects (walls, tables, etc.) can take them out of a fight in a hurry. These are skills that a grappler has! Again, to pull this off a grappler must consider how to use their skills in a tactical situation. If you automatically go into competition mode and try to put their opponent into your guard or to mount them, you may find yourself in trouble. If, however, you have thought through various scenarios in advance, used visualization techniques to imagine how to put your skills to best use, keep your cool, and think tactically, you as grappler (little lone an MMA fighter, who generally has solid striking skills as well) are a formidable opponent, even against multiple attackers.

As not only a former police officer but someone who has been to law school, let me comment briefly on the legal situation as well. When I was training to be a cop, my Field Training Officer always told me that job one was to make sure that I went home alive at the end of the shift. The same is true in a self defense situation. Use all the force that you need to defend yourself, but keep your cool. Don't get angry. Don't keep fighting when they have given it up.

Keep your head about you, don't fight when you don't have to, think tactically, stop when it is time to stop, and let the legal issues take care of themselves. It is not judges that you have to worry about, but juries, they are everyday people and tend to understand being afraid and defending yourself.

Sorry to ramble on, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. Here's hoping well all get home safely every night.

Dave

[Ryan]

Welcome Dave, what you say makes a lot of sense about being tactical. I just hope if I am ever attacked by multiple people that I have atleast a little time to plan. It probably wouldn't be long, but just long enough to size up opponents.

It makes me mad that the law requires I stop when they give up. Its like, I wouldn't have had to fight if these idiots would have just left me alone but they never considered the law when attacking me. So, if they give up I can't do anything else to ensure they didn't quit just so I would stop and then jump me later?:D

[Tom Gavrilos]

Okay, I am new to these forums so I am late to this discussion. Even so, I would like to touch on a couple of points.

I am ex-cop, and in my experience, the skills learned training and competing in MMA translate very well into confrontations in the real world. What one needs to add is tactical awareness and tactical planning. What do I mean by that? If, for example, you put a partially standing attacker into an arm bar, you are likely to find your head cracked hard into a cement or wooden floor. It is not the same as the cage. Most moves can work in the real world, but when training you must ask yourself how whatever move you are practicing would translate into a real world encounter. When could you use it? When would it get you in trouble?

Likewise, think about how moves can be modified to meet real world threats. For example, I often hear people say that a grappler would be at a great disadvantage against multiple opponents. There is some truth to this, as if you are entangled on the floor with one person, his buddy is free to kick you, etc. On-the-other-hand, who says that just because one is a grappler that they have to go to the ground? Slamming a person to the ground or (my favorite) "introducing" them to solid objects (walls, tables, etc.) can take them out of a fight in a hurry. These are skills that a grappler has! Again, to pull this off a grappler must consider how to use their skills in a tactical situation. If you automatically go into competition mode and try to put their opponent into your guard or to mount them, you may find yourself in trouble. If, however, you have thought through various scenarios in advance, used visualization techniques to imagine how to put your skills to best use, keep your cool, and think tactically, you as grappler (little lone an MMA fighter, who generally has solid striking skills as well) are a formidable opponent, even against multiple attackers.

As not only a former police officer but someone who has been to law school, let me comment briefly on the legal situation as well. When I was training to be a cop, my Field Training Officer always told me that job one was to make sure that I went home alive at the end of the shift. The same is true in a self defense situation. Use all the force that you need to defend yourself, but keep your cool. Don't get angry. Don't keep fighting when they have given it up.

Keep your head about you, don't fight when you don't have to, think tactically, stop when it is time to stop, and let the legal issues take care of themselves. It is not judges that you have to worry about, and they understand being afraid and defending yourself.

Sorry to ramble on, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart. Here's hoping well all get home safely every night.

Dave

very well said and I enjoyed reading your post!

Welcome to the board Dave :)

[Ryan]

You know, its been 2 weeks and Ari still hasn't given us his point of view.