Bicep Slicers.. what belt level does these at yur gym?

[virginiamma]

I keep being suprised at how many people don't know what a bicep slicer is. Last night I nearly broke a dudes forearm because he simply had no clue he was in a position of danger. I started applying the pressure slow and kept ramping up to the point were I was really concerned about the guy so I asked if he was ok, realized he had no idea what was going on, then switched back to an armbar.

At any rate he's not the first guy I have met that was ignorant of them.. is this a sub thats taught at higher belt levels at other gyms? like leg & ankle locks?

[JayC]

Blue Belt & above.

We are forbidden to do leg locks or bicep slicers/arm crush/calf cranks at beginners classes

[Forkfoot]

My gym starts teaching and applying them immediately, but in standard IBJJF competitions they're not even legal until brown belt so I can understand why a lot of places wouldn't even bother teaching them. I personally think it would be better to just teach them to students ASAP and make sure that they are very aware that it isn't "just a pain move" as a lot of people think and that their arm is in just as much danger once one of those babies is locked in as in any other arm lock. Seems like more guys get injured by the misconception that the move can't break their arm than by the move itself. If everyone had that same belief about arm bars, arm bars would be illegal up till brown belt, too.

[Shonuff]

Brown belt here...

[flying gogo-plata]

at my gym we can do whatever we want as we are half gi, and half no-gi

[michaelwbray]

At our gym white belts can do bicep slicers. Blue belts and above can do leg locks. White belts can do leg locks to blue belts and above, but not to other white belts. Blue belts and above cannot leg lock white belts.

[sswturtle]

We do not allow white belts to do knee bars, heel hooks, bicep slicers or calf-crushes, and we do not permit any belt to do them to the white belts.

The straight ankle lock and figure four toe hold are legal all the way around, but upper belts are cautioned against doing them to new white belts who may not know the counters or realize the need to tap.

Blue belts can play with bicep slicers and calf-crushes, mostly so they know how to get out of them and to avoid them. Knee bars are reserved for purple belts and up and heel hooks and their escapes are taught only in the MMA competition (actual fighters) class and for brown belts and up.

IBJJF is going to ban heel hooks altogether. Too much damage too quickly. As Professor Caique says, "If you can heel hook me, I can scratch your eyes. Both are fighting moves."

Tim

[watty31]

to be fair it takes alot more skill to heel hook someone than to scratch there eyes so don't really agree with that. but surely a full powered kneebar can cause damage extremely quickly too. i don't think its good for the self defence to limit a useful hold like a heel hook,yes don't slap it on properly in class but it should still be taught. i don't know why people just don't use catch and release, simple.

[Sandman]

I had a blue belt stop me in mid-ankle lock telling me only blue belts and up can use them. Then... he proceeded to catch me in a knee bar. :confused:

I think schools need to post things like this for beginners since, with the internet and books, some new guys know at least the basics of how to do them.

[carl86]

im sorry but I really don't know what a bicep slicer is.. perhaps you can give me some link to videos performing bicep slicers.. I hope you won't mind guys..

[Brandon Quick]

ibjjf are afraid of heel hooks, afraid of twisters, afraid of slicers. they suck at them they suck at defending them. thats why they outlaw them. it is a weakness. not to be safe. if you train them then you are knowledgeable about them offensively and defensively. thats why no-gi should move away from gi and bjj. just like greco and judo. 2different worlds and should be run that way. it is now a monopoly and bs. i was just at NAGA watching people get heel hooked and one of my guys took gold that way but the only injuries out of 1,000 competitors was from a kimura so lets ban shoulder locks too

[virginiamma]

ibjjf are afraid of heel hooks, afraid of twisters, afraid of slicers. they suck at them they suck at defending them. thats why they outlaw them. it is a weakness. not to be safe. if you train them then you are knowledgeable about them offensively and defensively. thats why no-gi should move away from gi and bjj. just like greco and judo. 2different worlds and should be run that way. it is now a monopoly and bs. i was just at NAGA watching people get heel hooked and one of my guys took gold that way but the only injuries out of 1,000 competitors was from a kimura so lets ban shoulder locks too

I saw more kids with sore arms and elbows at NAGA than anything. The refs really should stop more matches in the childrens division esp... the white/yellow belt kids.

[Ryan]

The bicep slicer is the first thing I learned. Granted, I probably walked in on a prepared class where the instructor had it planned but he could have always pulled me aside and taught something else.

It kind of stinks that BJJ is being watered down the way it is. I think their should be some sort or rules in each organization and schools and students should then have the right to enter or avoid each competition based on the rules.... but to have the same sets of rules all the way around is stupid

[rocknroll]

had bicep slicer, in my first lessons too, but my instructor told me to tap early because the injury comes first and then the pain :)

but i dont like heelhooks, i have trained them only a little, and dont know how far i can go when the heat of battle is on :) but i also dont like doing them because i dont like when someone does them on me, since i have bad knees and im scared of injury

[flying gogo-plata]

had bicep slicer, in my first lessons too, but my instructor told me to tap early because the injury comes first and then the pain :)

but i dont like heelhooks, i have trained them only a little, and dont know how far i can go when the heat of battle is on :) but i also dont like doing them because i dont like when someone does them on me, since i have bad knees and im scared of injury

i love heel hooks and have ended up rolling around with each of us having a heel hook and i believe that u are making a good decision in avoiding them if u have bad knees cuz when i started doing bjj my knees were fine, now the pop and crack and get sore easily, been heel-hooked way to many times as a counter to my heel-hooks

[the viking clan 777]

you can do what ever,some guys even do body strikes on the ground!

No biteing !!!

[sswturtle]

ibjjf are afraid of heel hooks, afraid of twisters, afraid of slicers. they suck at them they suck at defending them. thats why they outlaw them. it is a weakness. not to be safe. if you train them then you are knowledgeable about them offensively and defensively. thats why no-gi should move away from gi and bjj. just like greco and judo. 2different worlds and should be run that way. it is now a monopoly and bs. i was just at NAGA watching people get heel hooked and one of my guys took gold that way but the only injuries out of 1,000 competitors was from a kimura so lets ban shoulder locks too

Then quit calling your form of grappling "jiu jitsu."

I normally respect your posts, but this one shows some serious ignorance. An injury from a kimura starts with a muscle strain, then muscle tear, then there will be ligament and tendon damage before dislocation. There is plenty of time to submit before the largest amount of damage can happen.

Heelhooks injuries begin with debilitating tendon and ligament damage. There can be little to no time between the onset of the attack and the injury.

But I am willing to adopt your prinicples in reverse. We can allow heel hooks, we can allow kimuras, let's allow fingerlocks, hair pulling, fishhooking, ear ripping, eye gouging, oil-checking! I am not good at defending those either. Bullsh!t.

I am not afraid of a heelhook, twister, or kneebar. I am afraid of newbies performing the techniques on others and causing). serious injury (even innocently).

[Ari Bolden]

Then quit calling your form of grappling "jiu jitsu."

I normally respect your posts, but this one shows some serious ignorance. An injury from a kimura starts with a muscle strain, then muscle tear, then there will be ligament and tendon damage before dislocation. There is plenty of time to submit before the largest amount of damage can happen.

Heelhooks injuries begin with debilitating tendon and ligament damage. There can be little to no time between the onset of the attack and the injury.

But I am willing to adopt your prinicples in reverse. We can allow heel hooks, we can allow kimuras, let's allow fingerlocks, hair pulling, fishhooking, ear ripping, eye gouging, oil-checking! I am not good at defending those either. Bullsh!t.

I am not afraid of a heelhook, twister, or kneebar. I am afraid of newbies performing the techniques on others and causing). serious injury (even innocently).


This is gonna be a good debate (get's comfy on the side lines).

I've got to say that I respect both Tim and Brandon on their view points and experience. Its no secret what Brandon's feelings are towards the BJJ establishment and he's not afraid to speak his mind (obviously).

I agree with Tim in that certain moves in jiu jitsu are more dangerous that others. There are certainly moves that will pop before 'pain' is felt. The heel hook could be classified in that area.

Having said that, newbies are most often the cause of injuries in jiu jitsu because they have yet to develop what I call 'sensitivity training'. All or nothing. This could be a heel hook, arm bar, kimura...it doesn't matter.

I think if a competitor understands the the priciples of these techniques and agrees to them in a match-then ANYTHING is fair game. We catch and release many moves at our gym-including twisting heel hooks.

The concept is simple. You caught me. You got me. No Challenge. No Resistance. No Injury.

Sure I can battle out of a heel hook attempt-but at what cost? The NEVER GIVE up attitude for a SPORT can do more harm than its worth in my opinion. The ego often gets guys injured.

I teach heel hooks at my school. I also teach counters as well. But I tell my students to know and understand a check mate position. By doing so-it makes them more apt in avoiding the bad spot in the first place.

My 2 cents...for what it is worth.

[sswturtle]

First, my post above reads disrespectful and I do not intend that (I will not go back and edit it b/c that seems rather weak).

2nd, I stand by my position that while I love 'grappling' in its various permutations, I see no since in making a claim of desire to separate from one style and then using that style's namesake to promote your program or school. If 10thpjj is not jiu jitsu and wants to be something completely different, then why not just call it something different? Judo did not call itself ju-jitsu, BJJ guys did not call themselves Judoka. They each claim to be unique. Unless something is added or subtracted (to distinguish itself from the others... beyond a unique strategy... 10thpjj is still jiu jitsu). An analogy would be cars. Gi BJJ would be a cadillac, no-gi a camaro, perhaps 10thpjj is a hybrid sports car... but it is still a car. Judo is a truck because it has a completely different set of rules. Sambo is a motorcycle. Wrestling in its various permutations is boats. They are all vehicles (grappling) but distinquishable by make and type.

3rd, I teach heel hooks, knee bars, and other injurious techniques, and like Ari said, I tell the students that when they see one of these moves being applied, the first reaction should be to tap. I teach the counters as well, but emphasize that with certain moves, the counter is to be employed once you have made the informed decision that it is worth the risk.

I have been to nearly 100 tournaments. No single move has cause more severe injuries than heelhooks! guys leave on crutches or on a stretcher. I don't find it a sportsmanlike technique. I do find it to be a fine fighting technique and if one wants to step in the cage, that is a risk assumed.

[jakem]

as the gavel falls.just kidding tim.bolth of you make compelling arguments.i personally do not use heel hooks because i'm afraid of hurting someone or getting the favor returned.but agreed that they have a place in the cage if agreed upon.

my 1/2 cent

[Ari Bolden]

Tim:

This has been a problem that I have seen with BJJ as it 'evolves'. In the beginning, everything was fair game but as BJJ grew and the SPORT grew around it, the rules needed to be changed, much like MMA.

I find heel hooks no more unsportsmanlike than an arm bar. Both use the principles of jiu jitsu wonderfully! There are many schools (perhaps not yours) in BJJ that are seriously curtailing their syllabus. This hasn't always been the case but there are many now that don't even teach throws and takedowns, avoid leg locks, no cranks.

This is fine but it has morphed into another vehicle as you describe.

It's like different rules for hockey at different levels. The rules change depending on what level you are playing at.

Again, my 2 cents (let's see if I can get up to a dollar in this thread):p

[mattamatta]

Don't spend all your money on posts, when you can share your opinion for free!