View Full Version : Where did all the stading take downs go in BJJ?
I havn't seen much if any standing take down videos in you tube or in many gyms or Dojo's. I've come to learn that there are alot of BJJ schools that don't even have standing takedown in the cirriculum any more? What happened?
Does Eddie teach takedowns in the 10th Planet system?
BadKarmaRising
12-15-2008, 07:45 AM
The bjj guard is so incredibly deadly that the very knowledge of your ability to use it causes your opponent to become weak kneed and crumble to the ground.
I believe that there is a big gap in MMA as regards to take downs. I cant see why there arn't more people using jjj/Judo takedowns/Throws. I know people will say that they are Low percentage moves but i believe thats only because the people who try to use them havn't trained long enough on the moves to fully apply them correctly in a real situation.
Even the basic Body Drop can be very deadly once Drilled. I use a dropping boddy drop where i drop to my right knee during the throw end up in side mount. Has been a deadly take down for me, deff one for the Tool box.
Hip Throw from the Clintch, Rice bale into full mount...etc....:D
First off, no throws are "deadly" unless you drop them on their heads and they die. Second, I believe takedowns in BJJ are because peoples guards are becoming their strong point. Third, throws in MMA are not common because the skin becomes sweaty and it becomes harder to get a grip for a throw. Its easy to take a Judo guys back if they slip. Even Karo has to use the cage to get many of his throws.
Slippery when wet???
Anyone that has wrestled in high school would know that sweaty or not you need to know how to shoot for the take down. Double leg, single leg, hip toss, firemans carry, I would assume its because it's hard on the body and not everyone wants to practice take downs. How about you BJJ guys, it use to be a part of the Gracie cirriculum where did it go? MMA can't be the reason because their is a lot of clinching in MMA. In fact the last MMA fight that one of the guys in my Dojo was in got tossed to the floor with a hip toss from the clinch.
Hard or not it is a basic piece of grappling. The last tournament I was in started from the standing position, with exception to puppy poo poo straddlers that fall to their gaurd and chase you around the mat like a dog with worms.
virginiamma
12-15-2008, 11:19 AM
My bjj instructors response after I bitched about not enough Judo in the program.
"Jui Jitsu guys are lazy and Judo takes work"
Slippery when wet???
Anyone that has wrestled in high school would know that sweaty or not you need to know how to shoot for the take down. Double leg, single leg, hip toss, firemans carry, I would assume its because it's hard on the body and not everyone wants to practice take downs. How about you BJJ guys, it use to be a part of the Gracie cirriculum where did it go? .....
It didn't go anywhere. We do takedowns and throws every class. It is believed that more injuries occur in takedowns than any other phase so the most of the major throwing are pushed back to blue and above.
This is the type of incorrect generalizations that occur when white belts, noobs and non-practicing fans begin speaking to what Gracie Jiu Jitsu does and does not encompass.
But that is just my opinion.
Lefty
12-15-2008, 01:49 PM
we do some take downs in our self defense portion of class at my school.
Slippery when wet???
Anyone that has wrestled in high school would know that sweaty or not you need to know how to shoot for the take down. Double leg, single leg, hip toss, firemans carry, I would assume its because it's hard on the body and not everyone wants to practice take downs. How about you BJJ guys, it use to be a part of the Gracie cirriculum where did it go? MMA can't be the reason because their is a lot of clinching in MMA. In fact the last MMA fight that one of the guys in my Dojo was in got tossed to the floor with a hip toss from the clinch.
Hard or not it is a basic piece of grappling. The last tournament I was in started from the standing position, with exception to puppy poo poo straddlers that fall to their gaurd and chase you around the mat like a dog with worms.
When you talked about throws in MMA.... I thought you were referring to simply Judo. Judo throws where you use the arm are dangerous because of wetness and them possibly taking your back.
In BJJ, many traditional wrestlers using wrestling shots for a takedown are now finding out that their neck is being guillotined, a firemans carry? Your setting yourself up to be mounted or get your arm cranked or some sort of crucifix. A simple single leg works best out of a tie up but that is simply a drop down takedown as you were referring to earlier.
virginiamma
12-15-2008, 02:29 PM
When you talked about throws in MMA.... I thought you were referring to simply Judo. Judo throws where you use the arm are dangerous because of wetness and them possibly taking your back.
In BJJ, many traditional wrestlers using wrestling shots for a takedown are now finding out that their neck is being guillotined, a firemans carry? Your setting yourself up to be mounted or get your arm cranked or some sort of crucifix. A simple single leg works best out of a tie up but that is simply a drop down takedown as you were referring to earlier.
are we talking bjj or mma?
neways firemans carry risky? only if you do it wrong... kata garuma is one of the highest scoring techniques in Judo. And singles only work ( IMHO ) in bjj when two players use crap hunched over judo. If you have proper posture you can Sumi Geashi someone on a single leg attempt pretty easily.
Thats just my opinion though at a white/yellow belt judo level, isn't CEB or someone else on here a Dan grade judo player? Perhaps he has a different opinion
BadKarmaRising
12-15-2008, 03:21 PM
are we talking bjj or mma?
neways firemans carry risky? only if you do it wrong... kata garuma is one of the highest scoring techniques in Judo. And singles only work ( IMHO ) in bjj when two players use crap hunched over judo. If you have proper posture you can Sumi Geashi someone on a single leg attempt pretty easily.
Thats just my opinion though at a white/yellow belt judo level, isn't CEB or someone else on here a Dan grade judo player? Perhaps he has a different opinion
When it comes to this board community's authority on the issue of translating judo to MMA or anywhere else for that matter, I humbly defer to Chris Herzog.
I will however say that any throwing technique against a resisting opponent presents problems in application that will vary depending on the opposing skill levels. Problems which are compounded by the environment in which application is attempted.
Sumi gaeshi doesn't work as a counter to a well executed single leg. Further, the cage or ring present and additional set of variables that have to be considered.
How can you execute sumi gaeshi as a counter to a sloppy single if your back is against the cage?
I digress (as is the usual for me.)
A wise man taught me that you have to consider possible, probable, and likely in any situation. It may be possible for someone to counter a good fireman's cary with a crucifix, but is it likely?
Finally, it has to be restated that BJJ as a sport has crafted a set of rules that reward what goes on after the takedown much more than the throw itself. That alone will push the focus away from efforts to develop throwing skills.
Once again, just my 2 cents.
virginiamma
12-15-2008, 03:31 PM
@BKR - I thought we're discussing BJJ not MMA.. am I wrong ? confused
BadKarmaRising
12-15-2008, 04:38 PM
@BKR - I thought we're discussing BJJ not MMA.. am I wrong ? confused
Hey now, i identified my getting off track and got back on the rails!
What works depends on what two dogs are in the fight.
When I came to Gracie Jiu Jitsu I thought Tawara Gaeshi and Sumi Gaeshi work beautifully against single and double takedowns. These throws countinue to work well against Jiu Jitsu guys.
Then I met my Jiu Jitsu brother Lee. Lee is bigger than I am, faster than I am, and better than I am. He was an NCAA wrestler for 4 years. Nothing I have works against him. The better man wins most if not all the time.
But against bad Wrestling, Judo counters can work really well. :D
are we talking bjj or mma?
neways firemans carry risky? only if you do it wrong... kata garuma is one of the highest scoring techniques in Judo. And singles only work ( IMHO ) in bjj when two players use crap hunched over judo. If you have proper posture you can Sumi Geashi someone on a single leg attempt pretty easily.
Thats just my opinion though at a white/yellow belt judo level, isn't CEB or someone else on here a Dan grade judo player? Perhaps he has a different opinion
I think firemans carry is risky in both.... even done right
I like a fireman's carry entry into a single leg. Not sure what it is called. It is my boy's highest percentage move right now. Seems a lot less risky than the hip toss.
BadKarmaRising
12-16-2008, 07:05 AM
I think firemans carry is risky in both.... even done right
At this year's olympic judo comp, , versions of the fireman's were consistant match winners. .
virginiamma
12-16-2008, 07:09 AM
At this year's olympic judo comp, , versions of the fireman's were consistant match winners. .
Did you see all the neck breaking landings! Holy crap I have to get this years matches on DVD.
At this year's olympic judo comp, , versions of the fireman's were consistant match winners. .
but you can't get subbed in judo.... right? That is the only thing wrong with the firemans carry IMO.... also, in Olympic judo you have a Gi which takes away the risks.
virginiamma
12-16-2008, 07:15 AM
but you can't get subbed in judo.... right? That is the only thing wrong with the firemans carry IMO.... also, in Olympic judo you have a Gi which takes away the risks.
ok.. Ryan are you not talking about bjj? I think thats where all this confusion is coming from. When I am talking about jits without the gi I say sub wrestling or 10p bjj... if I am talking about bjj I mean with the gi unless I say specifically otherwise.
Maybe I am the only one.
and yes you can be subbed in judo... standing or on the ground
ok.. Ryan are you not talking about bjj? I think thats where all this confusion is coming from. When I am talking about jits without the gi I say sub wrestling or 10p bjj... if I am talking about bjj I mean with the gi unless I say specifically otherwise.
Maybe I am the only one.
and yes you can be subbed in judo... standing or on the ground
but subbing isn't the main priority though is it?
Winning is the main priority.
virginiamma
12-16-2008, 07:30 AM
but subbing isn't the main priority though is it?
Depends on the player... some people have a bump and grind strategy where they get a takedown, any take down, and try to score via sub or pin. The thing is that you have to get some sort of take down you can't just butt flop. Others just go for ippon throws and stall on the ground.
I'd say this year there was a very good mix of players. Travis Stevens looked hot on the ground. Awesome turnovers... and armbar attempts...
The Togolese player was choked unconcious via clock choke.. lots of good subs...
The best flying armbar I have ever seen ..... (I can't remember her name I want to say Jan ) was one of the top US women Judo players from the late 70s early 80s. You knew she was going to come with it but she was hard to stop. The rest of her game was pretty good too.
I didn't use a lot of subs. If I got a good Osaekomi I kept it for an ippon. I played anywhere from 189 pounds to 210 pounds. Bigger guys can hold pins really well. Smaller classes tended to use more submissions. 30 seconds is a longtime to pins someone ( now it is 25 seconds ) ..... My last tournament was 1988. I am not up on the new game.
virginiamma
12-16-2008, 07:51 AM
The best flying armbar I have ever seen ..... (I can't remember her name I want to say Jan ) was one of the top US women Judo players from the late 70s early 80s. You knew she was going to come with it but she was hard to stop. The rest of her game was pretty good too.
I didn't use a lot of subs. If I got a good Osaekomi I kept it for an ippon. I played anywhere from 189 pounds to 210 pounds. Bigger guys can hold pins really well. Smaller classes tended to use more submissions. 30 seconds is a longtime to pins someone ( now it is 25 seconds ) ..... My last tournament was 1988. I am not up on the new game.
actually did you see the new rules? 20 second ippons now from what I understand
I guess I need to be more up on Judo. I thought it was a martial art in which you just stood, manuevered for position and threw your opponent for a point. When your opponent got up.... your re-started. Didn't know you went for a finish in competition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrTs5Ts0tIc
BadKarmaRising
12-16-2008, 10:35 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrTs5Ts0tIc
Silly Ed, that can't be judo. Everyone knows there are no leg locks in judo.
Sheesh
virginiamma
12-16-2008, 10:49 AM
oh man do I have a story... lol
the gracies should file a business process patent on the armbar already
Perhaps it could be titled
"Efficient method of separating endoskeleton support structure of humans at the upper extremity ( right or left side )."
Dannicus
12-16-2008, 11:04 AM
My old school is a Gracie school, we still deal with takedowns. In fact, Fridays are takedown classes.
Well its obvious that not everyone has eliminated standing takedowns. BJJ is a very respectable MA. I would hate to see the it watered down and the respectability diminished.
I'm curious. Who is your teacher? Where do you train?
I don't recall seeing your intro.
Thanks
Tallsilkyslim
12-17-2008, 12:28 PM
Too much emphasis is being put on submissions and knockouts, and people are training less and less all the in between stuff.
Nover vs Efrain.
This is a great example. Hell even my last fight is a good example.
Look at what happens to a fighter when they don't drill take downs and take down defenses. They end up with losses.
BadKarmaRising
12-17-2008, 01:01 PM
Too much emphasis is being put on submissions and knockouts, and people are training less and less all the in between stuff.
Nover vs Efrain.
This is a great example. Hell even my last fight is a good example.
Look at what happens to a fighter when they don't drill take downs and take down defenses. They end up with losses.
I agree completely. The average spectator doesn't understand the game much beyond a sub or a knockout and since they pay the bills, the promoters have to encourage fight ending crowd pleasers.
One of the promoters I work for has us select a sub and knock out of the night then rewards the winners with $100 gift cards from a sponsoring tattoo shop. Technical matches tend to bore fans to death because they don't understand what they're watching.
First off, no throws are "deadly" unless you drop them on their heads and they die. Second, I believe takedowns in BJJ are because peoples guards are becoming their strong point. Third, throws in MMA are not common because the skin becomes sweaty and it becomes harder to get a grip for a throw. Its easy to take a Judo guys back if they slip. Even Karo has to use the cage to get many of his throws.
.................................................. ....................OK!..:rolleyes:
"First off", Do some research before commenting.:)
vBulletin® v3.6.5, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.