If the UFC never allowed the gi.....

[Ryan]

Would Royce Gracie have ever been as good as he was? Would he have won as much as he did or would he have gotten pounded by the strikers and wrestlers?

I ask this because I am not so sure he would have been HOF material had he not been allowed to wear the gi.

DIscuss

[willufc]

I think the Gi also helped him to win in early UFC tournaments but I think there were also things which he had done to wear down his opponents. I think I saw one fight of him which I cannot remember when he was pulling the hair of an opponent to break his posture and one when he was using his heel while in the guard to hit the kidney part of the opponent...

[Shonuff]

While I think the gi probably helped him a little he never really used it that much as an offensive tool...

The gi also made it alot easier for his opponents to hold onto him as well.

So if it had been no-gi I think the outcomes of the matches would have basically been the same.

[forrestang]

I agree^^^^

I think the outcomes would have been the same, I think he just had the advantage because nobody was learning how to defend Royce's Groundwork.

[BadKarmaRising]

Royce said he wore it because people would try to grab it instead of punching. He finally took it off because he was worried about it being used against him (Yoshida) not because of any rules changes.

You can't look at those early battles and not give the man props though. Gi or no gi, he was a great fighter and NHB/MMA would not be where it is now without him and his family's influence.

[batsugan]

I think that the gi played very little part in Royce's game. Remember, back then submissions weren't as well known to those outside of the Judo/Ju Jitsu community. Now, fighters not only recognize what is going to happen, but how to defend the subs. So as far as Royce, it was the mystery of BJJ, not the gi.

[Tallsilkyslim]

I think that the gi played very little part in Royce's game. Remember, back then submissions weren't as well known to those outside of the Judo/Ju Jitsu community. Now, fighters not only recognize what is going to happen, but how to defend the subs. So as far as Royce, it was the mystery of BJJ, not the gi.

+1. The reason he was successful can be summed up in one of my favorite quotes:

"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king."

[BadKarmaRising]

I think that the gi played very little part in Royce's game. Remember, back then submissions weren't as well known to those outside of the Judo/Ju Jitsu community. Now, fighters not only recognize what is going to happen, but how to defend the subs. So as far as Royce, it was the mystery of BJJ, not the gi.

He beat Sakuraba in 07, long after the "mystery" had faded. Ken Shamrock was no stranger to the "mystery" back in the begining of the UFC either. Royce still beat him. And guys like Severn and Kimo.

Man I sound like a Gracie nut hugger. Welcome to bizarro world!

[virginiamma]

Ken Shamrock was no stranger to the "mystery" back in the begining of the UFC either. Royce still beat him. ...

Actually Ken was a newb and barely new anything. He's said as much in several interviews. He only had about 6 months of sub grappling via Pankration at the time the first UFC happened.

[Ghosted3]

Not to mention Royce was juiced when he beat Saku, but that is neither here nor there.

On topic, I agree that the gi didnt help out alot (it helped in the same ways they help today with grip ect.), but I still believe he would have done about the same without the gi, the fights just may have gone on a bit longer.

[Tallsilkyslim]

If he was winning all of his fight via ezekiel choke (using his own gi to submit his opponents) then i would say it made a difference.

If anything, it put him at a disadvantage. There are a lot more advantages to your OPPONENT wearing a gi than not. And to play devils advocate on myself, *im weird*, the gi does help your grip by utilizing the gi pants to create more friction.

Good thread Ryan.

[BadKarmaRising]

Actually Ken was a newb and barely new anything. He's said as much in several interviews. He only had about 6 months of sub grappling via Pankration at the time the first UFC happened.

Shamrock had been sub wrestling for a few years before joining the UWF in japan, where he stayed for a year before leaving and becoming "king of pankration."

His "explanation" sounds like more of the excuse making that the Shamrocks are highly skilled at.

[Ryan]

Preston brought up a good point.

Would Royce's opponents been able to slip out of a sub had he not wore the Gi? Did the Gi help him hold on to a few more subs than he maybe should have?

[michaelwbray]

Royce still would have done well. I bet that boxer that he fought is still kicking himself for wearing one boxing glove in that first UFC, lol.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Royce still would have done well. I bet that boxer that he fought is still kicking himself for wearing one boxing glove in that first UFC, lol.

Rumor has it that he wore the glove because he was afraid of killing someone.

[Hadaka Jime]

While I think the gi probably helped him a little he never really used it that much as an offensive tool...

The gi also made it alot easier for his opponents to hold onto him as well.

So if it had been no-gi I think the outcomes of the matches would have basically been the same.


i think if anything it may have negatively impacted him, because i do not recall 1 technique he used that can't be used no gi, and a lot of people yanked and pulled it while being a lot heavier this allowed them to dramatically alter positioning

i really hope no one mentions the mat hughes fight as a reason saying he isn't as good no gi, because i'd say that fight can be chalked up to him being very old, and an early call by the ref

as far as it making more friction to hold on to a technique, thats the only reasonable argument i have heard so far and i think he was on a whole different level then any one he competed against in the early ufc's on the ground and gi or no gi it wouldn't change the outcome of a submission if he was in that position already, that's just what i think... but who knows

and the sweat thing doesn't come into account until later in the fights

[Ryan]

Great discussion guys. Would Royce be as good if everyone knew Jits from the beginning of the UFC?

[forrestang]

Great discussion guys. Would Royce be as good if everyone knew Jits from the beginning of the UFC?

No...........................

[Malice]

I think the only match that might have come out differently, even though he still may have won, wat UFC 1 against Ken. He used the sleeve of his gi to choke him out and Ken didn't know anything about an opponent wearing a gi so he didn't realize he was in danger until he felt the choke sink in. That's when Ken started having his training partners wear a gi, so he could learn about how it's used against him.

[batsugan]

Great discussion guys. Would Royce be as good if everyone knew Jits from the beginning of the UFC?

If all things were equal, I don't think Royce would have been as dominate, not to say that he wouldn't have won , but not as dominate for sure.

[BadKarmaRising]

Great discussion guys. Would Royce be as good if everyone knew Jits from the beginning of the UFC?

You have to remember that the UFC was started to showcase Gracie jj. The matchups would still have been selected to favor Royce, jits or no.

[CEB]

I don't know whoever attempted to enter and was turned away but the so-called champions that represented their respective disciplines were often pretty lame. But then again many people who were at the top of their field could NOT financially afford to enter such a donnybrook risking injury.

Example was Sumo. An actual Yokozuna is one of the highest paid athletes in the world. It would have been stupid to have entered UFC. No GOOD karate people entered or champion calibier boxers. I don't know if any of this would have change the outcomes. It would have been noce for instance to have seen a Judoka like Rafal Kubacki or David Douillet or Naoya Ogawa ( who eventually did get into MMA.) try their hand in UFC 1 or 2.

Then again Tank Abbott showed up and kicked everybody's ass.

[Tallsilkyslim]

I know from personal experience that the outcomes would have been completely different if the other competitors knew jits. But the point of the first UFC's was to showcase how jits was a superior style compared to other styles. Royce opened the world's eyes to the reality of ground fighting. That is why he struggled against Hughes later on; by this time the art was n longer a secret. All competitors learned that in order to be a successful fighter they had to be well rounded.

It also just goes to show what great teachers the Gracie's are. They shared their art with the world instead of keeping it all a secret. None of us would be on this forum right now without them.

[virginiamma]

It also just goes to show what great teachers the Gracie's are. They sold their art to the world instead of keeping it all a secret. None of us would be on this forum right now without them.

Corrected for truth

[Tallsilkyslim]

Corrected for truth

If i could be rich off of just doing what i love (martial arts), then i would.

The only gripe i have is some of the prices are outrageous imo. Good point though Scott.

[BadKarmaRising]

Corrected for truth

They sure did, but man it beats the alternative. I've got some really old judo and jits books where the photos of the techniques either intentionally omit critical photos in a sequence or worse, alter it as to make it less effective.

The Gracies at least sold a quality product and if you have a black belt from them, your able to tie your own shoes for sure.


Man it's a scary day in Karmaville. This thread makes me look like a GJJ nuthugger!

[Tallsilkyslim]

They sure did, but man it beats the alternative. I've got some really old judo and jits books where the photos of the techniques either intentionally omit critical photos in a sequence or worse, alter it as to make it less effective.

The Gracies at least sold a quality product and if you have a black belt from them, your able to tie your own shoes for sure.


Man it's a scary day in Karmaville. This thread makes me look like a GJJ nuthugger!

I don't think you are a nut hugger Steve. I think you are just giving credit where credit is due.

[willufc]

Great discussion guys. Would Royce be as good if everyone knew Jits from the beginning of the UFC?

I would say that the outcome would have really been too diffirent. The victory of Royce is highly due to the fact that most fight at those time did not have any idea what a little guy was doing in there. Royce was basically the smallest guy in the first UFCs and most of the guys trained in a purist way. Karate, boxing, etc... and they must have been thinking like "there is no way this little guy would knock me down" only to find that there he was on there arms clinging to it and breaking them...

[zaxonortesus]

I think that we can all admit that Royce is one of the top top guys in JJ. Gi or no gi, I have to echo the setiment that had top top guys in other MAs gotten into the UFC, he probably would have been lost in the shuffle. Imagine Roy Jones Jr. in the cage? Or a top Muay Thai guy like Buakaw or John Wayne Parr? If Royce shot in, a knee or an uppercut from a top Muay Thai fighter or boxer would have probably shut him down.

Gi or no Gi, I think level of competition is what Royce's greatest advantage was.

[Tallsilkyslim]

I think that we can all admit that Royce is one of the top top guys in JJ. Gi or no gi, I have to echo the setiment that had top top guys in other MAs gotten into the UFC, he probably would have been lost in the shuffle. Imagine Roy Jones Jr. in the cage? Or a top Muay Thai guy like Buakaw or John Wayne Parr? If Royce shot in, a knee or an uppercut from a top Muay Thai fighter or boxer would have probably shut him down.

Gi or no Gi, I think level of competition is what Royce's greatest advantage was.

I think the level of competition certainly helped. But i personally think it wouldn't have mattered. If the top boxing guy in the world or the top thai guy went in there with Royce, and had absolutely NO experience on the ground, my money would still be on Royce.

[zaxonortesus]

I think the level of competition certainly helped. But i personally think it wouldn't have mattered. If the top boxing guy in the world or the top thai guy went in there with Royce, and had absolutely NO experience on the ground, my money would still be on Royce.

Agreed 100%, but my point is that someone at his caliber in another discipline would have had a better chance at keeping it on the feet, or handling the clinch better. But yes, once it went to the ground, no amount of boxing or MT would have helped.

[willufc]

I think they were all the best at those times. They'd been invited by the UFC since they were the "Champions of their Own Disciplines" so at that point I think they're all high caliber fighters fighting in the early UFCs.

[zaxonortesus]

No question that they were high caliber fighters, but look at Tank Abbott? What is he a champion in? There are many different ways to define 'champion', look at all of the belt holders in regional MMA shows now-a-days. They are champions, but going against a UFC champion... there is a major difference. If at the time, Royce was probably one of the top 10 fighters in his discipline, I really doubt any of the other 'champions' were top 10 in their sports... but it must be said, the TKD pool was much deeper at the time than the BJJ pool if you are talking top 10.

[CEB]

I think they were all the best at those times. They'd been invited by the UFC since they were the "Champions of their Own Disciplines" so at that point I think they're all high caliber fighters fighting in the early UFCs.


You are crazier than Hell. That was a marketing sales pitch. There was a not a single Karate guy at UFC that was world class caliber. I'm not saying a good Karate man would have fared any better. Just that there was no really good ones who showed up to compete.

Heck the color commentators for the first UFC would have whipped any of those Karate competitors. I would have liked to have seen some one like Parker Shelton in his prime have had a go at it.

In 1993 Jeff Thompson from England ( 4 time WUKO Heavyweight champion) may have been a better representative. He is was about 6'11" and in the off season he ran hurdles in track and field and did full contact. Someone like that would have been a reasonable representative of the title "Champions of their Own Disciplines". Hell I might as well have fought in UFC in 1993 as the guys who did. I'm a 5 time National Champion in Karate. There is so many Champions out there in the World it doesn't mean anything. I would have got my ass kicked. There are like a million sanctioning bodies in the World. Everyone has a champion.

[Ryan]

You are crazier than Hell. That was a marketing sales pitch. There was a not a single Karate guy at UFC that was world class caliber. I'm not saying a good Karate man would have fared any better. Just that there was no really good ones who showed up to compete.

Heck the color commentators for the first UFC would have whipped any of those Karate competitors. I would have liked to have seen some one like Parker Shelton in his prime have had a go at it.

In 1993 Jeff Thompson from England ( 4 time WUKO Heavyweight champion) may have been a better representative. He is was about 6'11" and in the off season he ran hurdles in track and field and did full contact. Someone like that would have been a reasonable representative of the title "Champions of their Own Disciplines". Hell I might as well have fought in UFC in 1993 as the guys who did. I'm a 5 time National Champion in Karate. There is so many Champions out there in the World it doesn't mean anything. I would have got my ass kicked. There are like a million sanctioning bodies in the World. Everyone has a champion.


Have you heard anyone come out and say that they weren't allowed to compete? That they were turned away? I hadn't. In fact, had I been a world champion and some guy was saying his style was the best and blah blah blah I think I would have defended myself and my art by challenging him

[CEB]

Have you heard anyone come out and say that they weren't allowed to compete? That they were turned away? I hadn't. In fact, had I been a world champion and some guy was saying his style was the best and blah blah blah I think I would have defended myself and my art by challenging him


No I believe I posted that at the front of the thread and also many of the people who really represented the the pinnacle of their art would have been stupid to enter this high dollar toughman contest.

For example Takanohana I believe was actively fighting in 93. Yokozuna Takanohana made millions fighting Sumo. Risking an injury for a $60,000 purse in a toughman contest requiring multiple fights in one night would have been stupid.

Same with a boxer in 1993 such as Tyson or Holyfield. Those guys were paid millions to fight.

[Dannicus]

You are crazier than Hell. That was a marketing sales pitch.

Agreed. The original UFC's were glorified informercials for Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Hell, that's why Royce was in it in the first place. Because he was smaller, and it would be more impressive if/when he won. If they were going with the best fighter, they would have chose Rickson hands down...that's one of my dream fights, to see Kimo fight Rickson at that time, and try to talk shit....Rickson would have rolled Kimo and then nailed him to that cross Kimo came out with.

[Ari Bolden]

Agreed. The original UFC's were glorified informercials for Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Hell, that's why Royce was in it in the first place. Because he was smaller, and it would be more impressive if/when he won. If they were going with the best fighter, they would have chose Rickson hands down...that's one of my dream fights, to see Kimo fight Rickson at that time, and try to talk shit....Rickson would have rolled Kimo and then nailed him to that cross Kimo came out with.


Tell us how you really feel Dan ;-)

[cuzz63]

No GOOD karate people entered .



Gerard Gordeau

* 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo-Kaikan)
* 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
* 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (N.K.A.)
* 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (U.S.A.)
* Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
* 4th dan Oyama Karate

* 1977 Multiple Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1977 Multiple European Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1979 1st Kyokushin Karate Team Champion defeated Dolf Lundgren and Andy Hug
* 1979 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1983 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1987 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate World Champion super heavy weight (France)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate European Champion super heavy weight (France)
* 1989 1st Mixed fighter Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1989 1st Vale Tudo - Shooto Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1990 1st Ultimate Fight (UFC-1) in Denver (U.S.A.) Final
* 1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1991 1st Rings Champion Ariake Colosseum Tokyo (Japan)
* 1993 Champion Thai-Boxing Ramadajin (Thailand)
* 1994 World Champion Seido-Kan Karate

[willufc]

Ooops... Sorry guys. I should've double check the information before posting something. Sometimes I just believe easily what I hear from TV...:o :o :o

[Tallsilkyslim]

Gerard Gordeau

* 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo-Kaikan)
* 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
* 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (N.K.A.)
* 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (U.S.A.)
* Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
* 4th dan Oyama Karate

* 1977 Multiple Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1977 Multiple European Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1979 1st Kyokushin Karate Team Champion defeated Dolf Lundgren and Andy Hug
* 1979 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1983 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1987 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate World Champion super heavy weight (France)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate European Champion super heavy weight (France)
* 1989 1st Mixed fighter Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1989 1st Vale Tudo - Shooto Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1990 1st Ultimate Fight (UFC-1) in Denver (U.S.A.) Final
* 1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1991 1st Rings Champion Ariake Colosseum Tokyo (Japan)
* 1993 Champion Thai-Boxing Ramadajin (Thailand)
* 1994 World Champion Seido-Kan Karate

I like Gerard Gordeau

[cuzz63]

"I like Gerard Gordeau"


If you look at Gordeau's record he fought in 2 mixed arts fights prior to the UFC.
As for the UFC being an infomercial for GJJ, while technically being true you have to admit it was a hell of a risk because Royce could have been KO'd at anytime before he got the fight to the ground.

[michaelwbray]

The fight against Dan Severn was a big risk for them. I wouldn't call it an infomercial.

[CEB]

Gerard Gordeau

* 9th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (Budo-Kaikan)
* 7th dan Sei Budo Kai
* 4th dan Kyokushinkai Karate (N.K.A.)
* 2nd dan Full-Contact Karate (U.S.A.)
* Highest degree Savate (Boxe Francaise)
* 4th dan Oyama Karate

* 1977 Multiple Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1977 Multiple European Champion Kyokushin Karate
* 1979 1st Kyokushin Karate Team Champion defeated Dolf Lundgren and Andy Hug
* 1979 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1983 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* 1987 Competing at World Championships Kyokushin Karate in Tokyo (Japan)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate World Champion super heavy weight (France)
* From 1988 Multiple Savate European Champion super heavy weight (France)
* 1989 1st Mixed fighter Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1989 1st Vale Tudo - Shooto Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1990 1st Ultimate Fight (UFC-1) in Denver (U.S.A.) Final
* 1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)
* 1991 1st Rings Champion Ariake Colosseum Tokyo (Japan)
* 1993 Champion Thai-Boxing Ramadajin (Thailand)
* 1994 World Champion Seido-Kan Karate

Yep, Prior to 93 ( the first UFC ) Looks like this guy competed in the Kyokushin Worlds but never won it. It doesn't seem like he had much in KARATE prior to 93 to show that he is at the pinnacle of the art.

FWIW - The Dan gradings don't mean anything. It looks like he eventually got 4th Dan from Oyama and NKA. I recognize those as legitimate groups. I have no idea what those those groups are that gave him NanaDan KyuDan paper. I pretty suspect because you generally need to be pretty OLD ( older than I am ) to have the time in grades to be considered for ranks that high. Most Karate ranks have become a joke.

I'm not a hater. I love Karate. I have been doing Karate for 36 years.

FWIW - I think Gerard Gordeau has no class for the way he intentional blinded Yuki Nakai.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Yep, Prior to 93 ( the first UFC ) Looks like this guy competed in the Kyokushin Worlds but never won it. It doesn't seem like he had much in KARATE prior to 93 to show that he is at the pinnacle of the art.

FWIW - The Dan gradings don't mean anything. It looks like he eventually got 4th Dan from Oyama and NKA. I recognize those as legitimate groups. I have no idea what those those groups are that gave him NanaDan KyuDan paper. I pretty suspect because you generally need to be pretty OLD ( older than I am ) to have the time in grades to be considered for ranks that high. Most Karate ranks have become a joke.

I'm not a hater. I love Karate. I have been doing Karate for 36 years.

FWIW - I think Gerard Gordeau has no class for the way he intentional blinded Yuki Nakai.

I forgot about the blinding incident in Vale Tudo 2. I should have said i like his long limbs and aggressiveness. That was messed up.

[cuzz63]

Yep, Prior to 93 ( the first UFC ) Looks like this guy competed in the Kyokushin Worlds but never won it. It doesn't seem like he had much in KARATE prior to 93 to show that he is at the pinnacle of the art.





1991 1st K1-Champion Tokyo Dome (Japan)

[CEB]

I forgot about the blinding incident in Vale Tudo 2. I should have said i like his long limbs and aggressiveness. That was messed up.


Yep. He had no class. He was a POS. He bit Royce in a match also.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Yep. He had no class. He was a POS. He bit Royce in a match also.

I didn't know about Royce either.

Him and Mike Tyson should do lunch sometime.

[Ryan]

I didn't know about Royce either.

Him and Mike Tyson should do lunch sometime.

Are they going to go to the carnival and get an elephant ear? :D

[Tallsilkyslim]

Are they going to go to the carnival and get an elephant ear? :D

Glad you picked up on the wit. :)

[ParaParaJMo]

Well, Royce did use the gi against Shamrock in the first fight to choke him, and used it against this other European traditional Jujutsu fighter and used his gi to choke him out. I think the gi did help a lot and helped absorb sweat. So a lot of Eddie's theories in relation to the friction factor did play a big part with Royce's jiujitsu during that period.

I don't know if Rickson ever fought in a gi during his MMA career, but I understood Rickson was supposed to fight in the UFC, and I wonder if he would have worn a gi to his fights in the UFC if it ever happened. But after watching Royce's old fights after reading Eddie's Jiujitsu Unleashed that Royce needed his opponent to wear a gi to set up his triangles and what not, I have to agree that the gi made a helluva difference. Just like how wrestling shoes would also make a difference as well.

But would Royce still win the events? I think so. Back then commissions for MMA didn't exist, so they were free to have such rules they wanted....and allowing fighters to wear a gi for whatever benefit was one of them. Do I think the gi is that much of a useless tool for training like Eddie? I don't know. As long as I do BJJ that's all that matters to me.

As for Art Jimmerson and his boxing glove, I think he was afraid of injuring his hands than hurting some one. Plus, I heard he was already scheduled to fight Thomas Hearns a few weeks later so he couldn't risk injury there.