Training the jits out of my game

[Tallsilkyslim]

I have a really bad habit when i roll. And before i elaborate, i want everyone to understand that right now my training is geared towards MMA, not strictly jits.

When i roll, i naturally want to pull guard. This is all fine and well until someone is trying to punch you in the face. And by someone, i mean guys that are alot stronger and tougher than myself.

I need to somehow get it in my head that being on my back is a last option, not a first. As much as i like my guard, it's not a winning position on any jits chart. Does anyone have any suggestions how i can untrain my body and have more of a "wrestler" mantality?

[cuzz63]

Start off training with smaller guys and tell yourself you lose if you pull guard, if for some reason you end up in guard then do whatever you can to get back up or sweep them (give yourself a goal to be an expert at sweeps). After training that way with the small guys start doing that with the bigger guys.

Personally I dont think going to guard is all that bad if you have an active guard and are really good at sweeps from there, problem to me I see in alot of MMA matches the guy on bottom seems to want to rest when he is on bottom.

[CEB]

.....
Personally I dont think going to guard is all that bad if you have an active guard and are really good at sweeps from there, problem to me I see in alot of MMA matches the guy on bottom seems to want to rest when he is on bottom.

I don't know if it is something my teacher said or if I read it in my Saulo Riberio book.

The Bottom is NEVER a place to rest. :D

It was probably a month or two ago when that really sunk into this thick head of mine and since my bottom game has gotten a little better.

[zaxonortesus]

BE AGGRESIVE! - B - E - AGGRESIVE!

I do the same thing, and it is something that I have been working on a ton. Being aggresive is one thing that has helped me. It's a conscious effort to pull guard, so when you see yourself do it, think "hey, I don't want to do this, what other tools do I have?" Then go for it.

I know you have a bunch more experience than me, but that is one thing that I have used, so I hope it helps.

[willufc]

The bottom is definitely the last place to be in MMA.

When Scott Epstein fought this guy I remembered that he keeps on pulling guard to make way for the rubber guard. He won of course but he had sustained a lot of damage before getting a triangle. No offense to the Rubber Guard but I think it should be use as a last resort though rather than making it as an offense by pulling guard always...

By the way Preston, what kind of fight do you prefer doing? Striking or ground and pound?

[naturalbornfighter1]

Hey Preston, check out Nogueira's book on the guard for MMA. It has some excellent positioning, theories and practical applications for using Jiu-Jitsu from the guard in MMA situations. The first week I went to an MMA class I came back with bruises all over my head, I read the first few instructional pages of Big Nog's book and now I barely get hit. I'd highly recommend it for someone in your situation. Good luck man!

[Tango]

........................

[Ari Bolden]

"mantality" would be a good name for a gay bar.

But seriously, BJJ has a top game too, and dictates proper poster when in guard, right? Maybe more Jiu Jitsu instead of less may help?

Sorry to side track: David, are you back east for good?

[cuzz63]

Some tips for guard in MMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NM7qggkxs0

[willufc]

I don't know but since they're talking about books and youtube video's then might as well add up:

BJ Penn's - Mixed Martial Arts Book of Knowledge

Youtube search:
Dan Severn in NAPMA
Joe Lauzon's
Frank Trigg's Ground and Pound

[Dr Sick]

Khuen Khru Greg Nelson said once about working on your takedown defense and sprawl "you've got to train like the guard neven even existed." I think that mentality would help in your case.

The other thing I would suggest is to train with a wall or cage. Have your partners drive you into the cage and punish you with slaps (simulated punches) once they've got you driven into the fence and can cheese grater your head. The slaps can easily be elbows in a real fight but use slaps for safety.

The point of the drill is to see how ugly things can get inside the guard when someone is mashing you into the cage and dropping lead on your head. This will give you incentive to work for top and to be the one dropping leather.

Hope this helps.

b.

[Adam]

Sound advice ^^^^

[Tallsilkyslim]

Khuen Khru Greg Nelson said once about working on your takedown defense and sprawl "you've got to train like the guard neven even existed." I think that mentality would help in your case.

The other thing I would suggest is to train with a wall or cage. Have your partners drive you into the cage and punish you with slaps (simulated punches) once they've got you driven into the fence and can cheese grater your head. The slaps can easily be elbows in a real fight but use slaps for safety.

The point of the drill is to see how ugly things can get inside the guard when someone is mashing you into the cage and dropping lead on your head. This will give you incentive to work for top and to be the one dropping leather.

Hope this helps.

b.

Dr. Sick:

If you watch my last fight, you can see that for me the problem i have is i am too comfortable fighting in my guard. I start going for submissions, which isn't a bad thing per se, but in my case i need to learn to want to avoid the ground either way and get/stay on my feet.

When I train, and in reference to my last fight, my problem is not the mechanic of breaking their posture and avoiding punishment, the problem i have and what i am seeking to fix in training is the mentality to want to pull guard and also the metality to "gift" people the takedown.

Here is the link to my last fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1U43T-PHNc

The drill that you mentioned is definitely similar to what i have been working on before class with my buddy Tyson. Thanks for the input everyone.

[Dr Sick]

A couple other suggestions... If I may.

First try working with a variety of partners. Particularly ones who pay good attention to keeping posture and blitzing you with punches while you're against the cage.

Second, you may want to be little more patient with your submission attacks. A lot of guys I work with go for a sub from bottom, right away. Their opponents are fresh, they have a lot of strength in them and they just muscle their way out and in doing so, pass the guard. If something is staring you in the face, you've got to take it but, other times you can wear them down first... old school Gracie style.

Lastly, and I know this is blasphemy for you jiu-jitsu folks. When my business partner and I first suggested this to our training partners, they almost kicked us out of the gym, but having your guard passed inside the cage isn't always a bad thing. When you missed the arm bar and your opponent went to side cross, you can make a bee-line to the fence, putting your back up against it as tight as possible, this prevents your opponent from mounting, taking your back or even keeping a tight or secure side cross position (the fence blocks his face, shoulders and arm and thus he can't get on top of you). From here you can make it to your knees and start standing up. Yes, you're going to take a couple punches... that's what happens when you're on bottom, but if he tries to keep you down, he can't submit you and he can't punch you. He's got to make a choice. Punch you, try to submit you, or keep you down, but you can't do all three.

Last weekend, I had a first time fighter go into the cage and the week before he kept turning away when he'd get punched. I chastised him for it and he asked me what he could do to correct the situation. I told him to make up his mind that it wouldn't happen again. During his fight, he got slobberknockered a couple of times. Once getting dropped to his knees. Not once did he turn his back. And shortly after getting knocked down, he returned the favor.

How do you resist the temptation to "just pull guard'. You make up your mind to do so and make that the end of it.

And now you can imagine me walking away.

[Dr Sick]

Here is a link to a clip demonstrating a similar idea to what I described above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLFQ-bScqzU

It's not exactly how we do it but it give you the general gist. You're going to have to work with it and develop it a little on your own anyway.

We've been debating weather or not to publish a clip on the subject but so far we've decided to hold off. First, people won't understand the theory behind it, second if you don't have any stand up, it makes no sense to try to get back up (except to try and better your ground position), and finally, there just aren't a lot of people out there looking into this, and that's just fine with me. I'd rather be part of the few who use it than the masses who don't understand it and don't care to learn more.

[Ari Bolden]

I am rather torn in this case. Brain (Dr.Sick) has very solid advice in this matter. Mental mindset when it comes to combatives is very important. The best advice that was given to me by my Japanese Jujutsu teacher (thank you Takahahsi Sensei!!!!) was this:

In a battle, you want to always be in a position where you can attack AND run away if need be. That means being on top, kneeling or standing. Jujutsu-true jujutsu-was to reverse a bad situation and get mobile and in position for the next attack. Sport Jiu jitsu, judo, and even wrestling are not the combative mindset you need to survive. Yes many fights can be finished of the back but your goal is not to pick that spot on purpose.

I tend to finish 70% of my sport jits matches off my back. Why? Because I have no fear of taking a punch while doing it. I am a guard player when it comes to SPORT jits.

In the real world and 14 years bouncing, I've spent probably 10 seconds in total on my back in the 200 or so scuffles I've been in.

As GI JOE says: Knowing is half the battle.
:D

[Ari Bolden]

I must add something (this is why I am torn).

You don't need to unlearn your jits mindset. Guard players have submitted many, many people in MMA.

To be a complete fighter, you've gotta be ready and train for that contingency. Why do you think that wrestlers do poorly in that position? They don't train for it (broad statement I know).

But hell...what do I know anyways...you guys are the crazy ones that step into a cage:p

[Dr Sick]

Hey I just noticed tallsilkyslim, that you're from ID. We have a bunch of friends up in Boise. Kaycey Uscola (we just cornered him last weekend at the Throwdown Fights), and a bunch of guys with Twisted Genetics. Also, we're friends with Tom Supnet, and Mitch Coats of Alliance Jiu-jitsu. We were supposed to do a Leg Lock Seminar out there but haven't been able to work out the Logistics. Mitch got injured and then things kind of fizzled but that's beside the point.

We just did a clip with Curtis Yergensen of Twin Falls Brazilian Jiu-jitsu at the 2008 Sub for Santa Grappling Tourney. He won the advanced division and we caught him on film demonstrating his winning combination. You wouldn't happen to know him would you? I think we'll be airing his segment on episode 12 of Taking It To The MMAT.

[Dr Sick]

I must add something (this is why I am torn).

You don't need to unlearn your jits mindset. Guard players have submitted many, many people in MMA.

To be a complete fighter, you've gotta be ready and train for that contingency. Why do you think that wrestlers do poorly in that position? They don't train for it (broad statement I know).



I totally agree. MMA has, is and always will be about finding the way to win. If that means using your striking to defeat a grappling dependent fighter then that's what it's going to take, if it means using grappling to dismantle a striking dependent fighter then that's what it's going to take. If it means fighting a clinch fight in open water or against the fence, bottom line is do what you've gotta do. But the more techniques and assets you have, the more options. You're only as strong as your weakest range/game.

"If we all reacted the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation. What's true for the group is also true for the individual. It's simple: Overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death."

- Ghost in the Shell -




I editied in the ghost in the shell quote

[Ryan]

Have you tried wrestling your way into submissions? Instead of pulling guard..... just wrestle. You can takedown your opponent, throw some strikes to loosen them up and then try for a jits position like mount or side control. Use your guard if they sweep you or if they take you down. With your long arms could you keep their head down around your lower chest so they aren't striking?

[willufc]

Either way man... Just have a nice time training and update us on the MMA fight you would be going into.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Brian:

Thanks for all of the advice. You definitely have solid imput, and since you are still kinda new i would like to add that it's exciting having you on the forum as a whole. I DO know Mitch, he brought some ammy guy's like myself down for some fights about 8 months ago. Mr. Uscola is a legend in my town, with many people claiming to be his "cousin" (they somehow think this makes them a fighter too:) ). You should come to Idaho falls and do a seminar with us! I am sure you have heard of Team Davis if you know those Boise guys........

Ari:

I think i understand what you are getting at. I LOVE to fight from my back, always have. I just need to learn when to plant my butt and when to avoid it at all costs. My strengths have done a 180 in the last year, with my stand up slightly edging out my ground, anymore. I need to realize that if i can keep on my feet and bang it out, my odds of winning will more than likely increase. I think that my submission game is good but these strong wrestlers are more than a handful for me, and i am in no way a jits master. Again, thanks as always for the advice. I always listen to you guys on here, very carefully i might add.

Ryan:

When i DO try to get a top position, i usually get creamed. I wish you could see these guys i have to roll with. They eat barbells for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I suppose, as mentioned previously, i should try to work takedowns and top positioning with some of the smaller guys to get the technical part down as well. And i feel another hole in my game that goes along with the mentality is i really need to get stronger.

Will:

Thanks for the support as always bro.

To everyone else on here thanks for the support and if i left a name out blame it on my head and not my heart. :)

[jbrentsmith]

The way i quit playing a bottom game for mma is i got the crap beat out of me in my last fight and i tried to play a bottom game till i got tkod in the second round. I wouldnt advise doing it this way lol but it sure stopped me from playing any sort of bottom game for mma. For now at least. I love the bottom game too much to give up on it totally.

[CEB]

I don't know a darn thing about MMA but, I wouldn't want to be on my back in a punching fight. But I watched that Damien Maia guy on TV. Holy Smokes! He is dangerous as Hell on his back.

[Ari Bolden]

I don't know a darn thing about MMA but, I wouldn't want to be on my back in a punching fight. But I watched that Damien Maia guy on TV. Holy Smokes! He dangerous as Hell on his back.


Ed:
If you watch Maia's other fights, he has the strangest (but effective) counter to the sprawl. He shoots, his opponent sprawls and then he pulls guard.

I mean seriously? Who does that and makes it work for them.

All hail Maia (there is hope for the jiu jitsu fighter after all!!!)

[JayC]

Ed:
If you watch Maia's other fights, he has the strangest (but effective) counter to the sprawl. He shoots, his opponent sprawls and then he pulls guard.

I mean seriously? Who does that and makes it work for them.

All hail Maia (there is hope for the jiu jitsu fighter after all!!!)

Ari, your avatar seems very similar to Bar Fresa in Liverpool. In fact, I'm 90% sure it is! :D

[Tallsilkyslim]

Ed:
If you watch Maia's other fights, he has the strangest (but effective) counter to the sprawl. He shoots, his opponent sprawls and then he pulls guard.

I mean seriously? Who does that and makes it work for them.

All hail Maia (there is hope for the jiu jitsu fighter after all!!!)

Yeah i was inspired to say the least watching Maia's last fight. It was the first time i have seen him and his comment about defeating opponents without hurting them made me grow a big rubbery one. :eek:

All jokes aside, just as you have said Ari, it's not the techniques that fail but the person doing them. Maia is an example of the opposite of this. :cool:

[Dr Sick]

Ed:
If you watch Maia's other fights, he has the strangest (but effective) counter to the sprawl. He shoots, his opponent sprawls and then he pulls guard.

I mean seriously? Who does that and makes it work for them.

All hail Maia (there is hope for the jiu jitsu fighter after all!!!)

Rigan and Jean-Jacques Machado. They actually taught this at a seminar I attended with them. The call it "Shooting To Guard". A friend of mine, John Mckean uses it to great effect and it's a brilliant counter to the sprawl.

[Ryan]

Preston- the only thing I can say that might not have already been said is that you might just need to evaluate your game and play to your strengths. Do what works best but at the same time work on your weakness. You can only get better working with the guys that you work with and I am sure you are getting better.... even if you don't immediately see the improvements.

Think positive. I see a lot of self doubt on your end and I think it might affect your game.

[Dr Sick]

Brian:
Thanks for all of the advice. You definitely have solid imput, and since you are still kinda new i would like to add that it's exciting having you on the forum as a whole. I DO know Mitch, he brought some ammy guy's like myself down for some fights about 8 months ago. Mr. Uscola is a legend in my town, with many people claiming to be his "cousin" (they somehow think this makes them a fighter too:) ). You should come to Idaho falls and do a seminar with us! I am sure you have heard of Team Davis if you know those Boise guys........


Yeah it's funny you mention the cousin thing. Once, we were cornering for Uscola in ID and he lost his fight. He doesn't take his losses very well. Anyway, it was towards the beginning of our friendship (actually, he works with Kiser a lot more than with me... at the time I was there more as a supporting role player to Kiser than for anything else). So anyway, I didn't know his group of friends or family at all. In the locker room, a girl comes walking in claiming to be his sis. So we let her in and into back room she goes telling us that she just wants to see if she can "make Kaycey feel any better". Five minutes later she comes running back out, not saying a word and bolts out the door. Shortly after, Uscola bitches me and Kiser out for letting some hussy into the locker room while he's trying to compose himself. We said that we thought it was his sister, at least that's what she said. Now we know better.

As for visiting Idaho Falls, I'm all for it. Have your peeps give Brandon and I a call. We'll set it up and it'll be a great time.

If you're ever in SLC for any of the fight shows up in our neck of the woods, give me a call. We'll see what we can do to help you and your peeps out. Horn runs fights, Throwdown ETC does as well. We occasionally co-host the Ultimate Combat Experience so we can get ticket deals etc sometimes.

Best wishes,
Khuen Khru Brian Yamasaki
Head Instructor Mushin Self Defense/Fighter Corps
Thai Boxing Association of the USA, State of Utah, Bountiful Branch
Coach Combat Submission Wrestling

[Matt "Vicious"]

from the perspective of a 130lb 19 y/o fighting 20-40 year old men: as soon as you start, punch them in the face. then keep punching them in the face. then after you block and escape their shoot, punch them in their face. They should be good and agrivated by now...this gives you the perfect opportunity to punch them in the face. :D. [note: just in case they do get a successful shoot; escape and commence punching them in their face.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Preston- the only thing I can say that might not have already been said is that you might just need to evaluate your game and play to your strengths. Do what works best but at the same time work on your weakness. You can only get better working with the guys that you work with and I am sure you are getting better.... even if you don't immediately see the improvements.

Think positive. I see a lot of self doubt on your end and I think it might affect your game.

It's funny you mention the self doubt Ryan. Good observation. The funny thing is i am usually over confident in everything else. Work, girls, other sports, self worth etc. But for some reason the fight game is hard for me to stay confident. I grew up scared to get beat up, being a little too skinny and naive for my own good. I got into martial arts to combat these issues. (pun intended.)

I suppose i am still working on feeling confident in the cage, and with less than 5 minutes total experience it suppose it will just take some time.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Yeah it's funny you mention the cousin thing. Once, we were cornering for Uscola in ID and he lost his fight. He doesn't take his losses very well. Anyway, it was towards the beginning of our friendship (actually, he works with Kiser a lot more than with me... at the time I was there more as a supporting role player to Kiser than for anything else). So anyway, I didn't know his group of friends or family at all. In the locker room, a girl comes walking in claiming to be his sis. So we let her in and into back room she goes telling us that she just wants to see if she can "make Kaycey feel any better". Five minutes later she comes running back out, not saying a word and bolts out the door. Shortly after, Uscola bitches me and Kiser out for letting some hussy into the locker room while he's trying to compose himself. We said that we thought it was his sister, at least that's what she said. Now we know better.

As for visiting Idaho Falls, I'm all for it. Have your peeps give Brandon and I a call. We'll set it up and it'll be a great time.

If you're ever in SLC for any of the fight shows up in our neck of the woods, give me a call. We'll see what we can do to help you and your peeps out. Horn runs fights, Throwdown ETC does as well. We occasionally co-host the Ultimate Combat Experience so we can get ticket deals etc sometimes.

Best wishes,
Khuen Khru Brian Yamasaki
Head Instructor Mushin Self Defense/Fighter Corps
Thai Boxing Association of the USA, State of Utah, Bountiful Branch
Coach Combat Submission Wrestling

Brian:

You should PM me some more info to contact you and we can set some stuff up.

As far as Ultimate Combat and other cage fights, are there any coming up in the next two weeks? I am going on vacation so it would be good timing.

Thats a funny story about Kasey. I guess its the life of a figher huh?:)

[Tagg1080]

the best advice i would give would be this:

1.go grab a training partner, and tell them to punch you in the face.
2.when they punch you in the face, try as hard as u can to think of hitting back as the fist makes contact.
3.observe results.


i can without a doubt in my mind tell you that at the exact moment that fist touches your face, the first reaction is NOT to hit back, it is self preservation, the first thought is run away, the SECOND reaction is to hit back.

^that has been a debate that i have been having on another forum, as to what the actual first thought is at contact.

that answer was given to us, ending the debate, by a man with a college degree in the psychology of fighting between humans, :D



so the lesson? the way the human brain is built, the best defense is a good offense, the 2nd and 3rd law's of chinese kenpo are to: always hit first, and to never block, always strike.


hope that helps^
(it all means to stay as aggresive as possible, and never take a crappy position, :D )

[Adam]

If in anyway i can relate to fighting it would be Body boarding.
Ive surfed for my whole life and it still scares the shit outta me. In big swells I fell those butterfly's real bad sometimes and doubt myself, wondering if i should paddle in and sit this session out.

Not a few weeks ago i was tested to the point of almost drowning,again.A huge set of waves hit the point and closed down the hole break. I didn't panic but as i took a deep breath before i duck dived, i got a lung full of salty water,
for the next 2 minutes i fought for my life.

The first wave kept me under and tumbled me for about 30 meters. Came up spitting water trying to breath , only to get smashed buy the next bigger wave.For 7 waves or so the same thing happened. Got to shore and threw on the beach up in front of my Sensei, lol.


The whole time i never panicked. Its happend so many times I just go into this state where , i dunno its hard to explain, its like an outer body experience and you have perfect awareness of whats going on.

Its like cliff jumping into the ocean. You gotta step across that line.Take control of your SH*T. Be the man
Man i suggest you go skydiving...or bungee jumping.

Do something extreme often and learn to control those emotions and Adrenalin. Learn to harness its power.Look at Fedor. He's in total control of his emotions the whole time. He's at home in the ring, its his house. He's the man.

Hope that helps somehow

[willufc]

the best advice i would give would be this:

1.go grab a training partner, and tell them to punch you in the face.
2.when they punch you in the face, try as hard as u can to think of hitting back as the fist makes contact.
3.observe results.



Is this really true or is this a joke? You would let someone hit you in the face... That's kind of absurd for me... I don't know. Maybe it's just me but hit you in the face is something I would never allow forever and ever...

[zaxonortesus]

Think positive. I see a lot of self doubt on your end and I think it might affect your game.

I have to go with Ryan here. You have said it yourself that going into your fight that you got the W you were super confident. I know this is a bit off topic, but know that you are good. You have said it yourself, your game is improving, your confidence should be improving too! Know that you are the strongest you can be when you go into the cage, and stand with them. We have faith in you man!!!

[Brandon Quick]

okay man, I must comment...
Pulling guard is an total last resort AND your jits better be that of Aoki or Damien or at a minimum, far superior to your opponent!! Being that I have never seen you at ADCC or something close, I dont believe you are there

Letting your guard get passed is absolutely stupid! All the respect to the people on this forum but that is completely wrong. The best MMA fighters in any organization are the GUARD PASSERS!! when I am in someones guard my subs are almost 0% and his are very high, sweeps,armbars, chokes, omoplatas. GnP is not as good in the guard, things can be stalled and boring. if I pass the guard now all my subs from side, judo side, twister side and mount are available and the leather I can throw is maximized, the bottom guy has almost no subs. How many fights have you seen stopped from side, mount or beatdown in or against the cage?
As CUO says, its always better on top:)

As a guy who has trained with top tier fighters from around the world...believe me when I say that letting someone pass your guard is not good, especially against the cage.

Waiting someone out like old school Gracie is completely wrong!!! Oh my goodness where do people come up with this??

You are dry, subs are harder for your opponent to slip out of. Wearing your opponent out? The longer the fight goes the longer you get worn out!! Let alone punched, cut and losing on points!!!!

Lastly, you NEVER WANT TO GET PUNCHED!!!!! Any one can knock you out, daze you or cut you!!! Never give anyone a puncher's chance!!!

p.s. good knock out but i would also advise working on the striking and wrestling

[Dr Sick]

Like I said. It's total blasphemy for all the jiu-jitsu zealots. And that's o.k. Everyone is entitled to their own way of doing things. We picked up that passing your own guard material from the Original Team Quest folks who use it very well and we've been able to do well with it ourselves. The man responsible for teaching us the series we use is named Dennis Davis who was one of the head Jiu-jitsu coaches at the Original Team Quest gym and now assists in teaching at the Extreme Couture gym in NV.

I really like his stuff. But no amount of explanation is going to change any minds here. It's a new idea and very unconventional to be sure. I've put it out there for those of you who might be looking for options outside the box. And for those of you who don't want to entertain the idea, I totally understand.

I'll take my banishment as a Galilean Heretic like a man.

[PacificFlows]

work mount/side control/sprawl control/north south subs until you cry. then every night when you go home, study above mentioned subs until you cry yourself to sleep. get up, work the subs until you cry.

...see where i'm going here?

i think i know where your addiction to the guard game comes from. it's a ton of fun in training, for sure. and in jits, you're right in thinking that letting them achieve that mental victory of "alright, i got the take down" is very often your ally. but when there's punches..? i won't go into it. it's been talked about here, and i'm sure you know better than i do.

but my point is is that there's a ton of really cool options for passing, TSC, gangsta-lean, and everything else. is it harder to become proficient at than the guard game? i think so. is it worth it to become proficient at? i'd say i know so.

in closing, let me just say this. nothing's cooler than pulling off a crazy american.
nothing. :cool:

[Dr Sick]

O.k. I've sat on it a while and changed my mind. The last couple posts have left a bad taste in my mouth and I don't want to spoil what, for me has been a good time, with positive vibes here on the Submission 101 forums.

Brandon, what's with all the hostility bro? You have a different way you think things should be done, that's cool. State your reasoning and I'll be the first one in line to hear you out. I'm always for hearing a different point of view.

I just don't understand what I've done to deserve such disrespect. I've trained with my fair share of top tier fighters and instructors and if there's anything I've learned its that it's not so much what someone says to do, as it is the reasoning behind it. I've heard Sean Sherk say to take a double leg one way and Royce Gracie say the complete opposite. But based on the logic that each one gave, each made total sense within their frame of reference. I've heard the same thing about arm bars from the guard. One guy will tell you to never cross your feet (takes pressure off the top or your opponent's head and allows him to posture up) and someone else will tell you, there's a time and a place to cross your feet during an arm bar from the guard (allows you to use your knee to push up on your opponent's face and compensate for when they stack you up as a defense to the arm bar).

I've seen just as many people cut and KO'd from within their guard when they're pressed up against the fence as when they've had their guard passed. Now I'm not arguing that the guard isn't a good place to be if you're on the bottom. Especially if you're in the center of the cage or even in a ring. But being pressed up against the cage, makes it a lot easier for your opponent's to reach your face with their elbows and fists.

If your guard is passed and you're back is pressed tight against the cage (putting you on your side and not flat on your back) It's hard for people to keep you in a tight side cross or even mount you. If they try to punch you out, they're not going to be tight enough to keep you from getting to your knees and standing up. If they manage to hold you tight enough to keep you in side cross against the cage, it's going to be very hard for them to strike as effectively.

"the moves work...its people who fail at doing them."

And the comment about the Gracies... ouch. I think their stuff holds some water man. Call me nuts again if you want. If all it takes to make submissions hard is for someone to not be so dry, thanks for the tip. I'll make sure my guys are well warmed up and I'll spritz them with some water before their first round. Then they'll be fresh and wet.

I'm not saying that going for subs is bad, or that going for subs early is bad. All I was trying to do was suggest some other ideas for consideration. If your opponent is freaking out.. and many a wrestler type will. Chillin for a bit before committing to a sub isn't necessarily all that bad an idea IMHO.

But that's beside the point. What the point of this post is, is to find out what I've done to offend or otherwise get on your $#!T list. I'd like to know so I can make it right. If this is just the way you carry yourself on a regular basis, that's cool to. But it won't sit right with me if I've pissed you off in some way and haven't been given a chance to clear things up.

Best wishes... sincerely

[PacificFlows]

you're the shit, Dr. Sick.

i may get my theories of JJ from other sources, but your experienced input is always appreciated on my end. :cool:

[Tallsilkyslim]

Brandon:

Thanks for the input. I have been continuously working on my striking and wrestling. I am a relative beginner to the MMA game. I just crossed the one year mark. I have a long ways to go. With less than 5 minutes in the cage, I am a super noob. I do appreciate the brutal honesty, and i will use it to get better and assess my skill set.

[JayC]

I'm gonna have to call the OTT Reaction card out on Dr. Sick here.

Dude, I read Brandon's post and then read it again to make sure...but I don't really see any harsh criticism, and especially no hostile remarks. He's stating his opinion and tbh, his thinking of "what waiting for them to get tired" being a load of ass...is actually correct. It's a BAD thing to do, especially with MMA fighters who are SO conditioned these days (or should be).

Not to act like his bitch, but you say:

I've seen just as many people cut and KO'd from within their guard when they're pressed up against the fence as when they've had their guard passed.

Brandon stated that he saw most people get their ass handed to them when mounted or up against the fence.

And the comment about the Gracies... ouch.

Ouch?! Dude, he said that waiting it out like OLD SCHOOL Gracie is wrong. I don't see any painful remarks with that? Not the fact that I agree with what he said about that, but it's not as if he's bashing the whole Gracie system. All Brandon is trying to do is to get people to think NEW, he's seen people make these mistakes plenty of times and as I see it, he wasn't disrespecting you in the slightest.

Nothing is meant in a hostile way, I'm just trying to back up that you've took this the completely wrong way.

If I'm wrong, correct me Brandon, if you did actually mean to "disrespect" him.

[Ryan]

Guys, I will be brutally honest here for a second.........

1st- everyone has a strategy based on what camps they come out of, styles of fighting they use, weakness and strength and their level of skill. Nothing is wrong if it is working.... sure, your strategy might shorten your career or cause longer breaks between fights due to medical clearance but a win is a win and if you are happy fighting for 4 years instead of 10 then fine.

2nd- Some people get offended easily on the internet because like Brandon told me in another thread..... you just can't read tone or how someone really meant something without clearing it up. I have been pissed off plenty by the things people say on here..... my temper is my weakness. Brandon has said things on here that have rubbed me the wrong way..... so has Ari, Ed and others. It happens but things get cleared up.

3rd- People are different on here. Brandon once said that he doesn't even really acknowledge a new student until he or she has been to so many classes because he has seen many students occupy his time for a few classes and never come back. It takes away from the loyal students. I don't like that statement because if I was a new student and he treated me like that I would never show back up anyway. Teachers teach differently based on their experience. I would rather train with Ari because I feel he is more caring and wanting to give everyone who trains a good experience.

People rub me wrong every day. It sounds like some of you are the same.... just remember, we all come from different teachers, styles, philosophies and lives. What abbrasive is for some is a smooth surface for others.

[Dr Sick]

I found this clip a while ago and it is very similar to the way we execute the same concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XKbLD7Qg7w

Not too dissimilar to the version posted earlier but still enough variation to get a different glimpse at the concept.

If you'd rather keep your guard and be pressed into the cage in that position, that's up to you. But if you're looking for other possibilities, I still think this and other ideas like it are viable and helpful to have in your arsenal.

One other note here. I have found that not all cages/fences are created equal. Some carry a lot of tension in the links of the cage and are thus very firm. This will allow you to shoulder walk up and sometimes even get all the way to your feet with that type of movement. But others are a lot more loose and as you try to shoulder walk, the cage bows and sinks in behind you trapping you in a very awkward position and in perfect range to eat elbows. To error on the side of caution, we no longer shoulder walk up the cage to the extent shown by Mr. Florian in the clip above.

Also, we will make our move to the fence about a half foot, to a foot sooner than shown in the clip. This is because if your opponent is really pressing with heavy forward pressure, we've found it difficult to thread the needle with your foot the way that Mr. Florian does with his left foot here. It will tend to get stuck and at that point it gets very difficult to pass your guard and get to your knees - feet. I'm not questioning the way Mr. Florian demonstrates this move. I'm just saying that it's been more effective for our group of people with some subtle variations.

Everyone does this type of thing differently. Play with it and work out the details for yourself.

Best wishes and best of luck.

[jasper_milktoast]

randy couture's strategy for most fights is to clinch and stay on them like glue so they tire themselves out trying to get him off. people do use that rope-a-dope strategy, and it can be effective.

like anything in fighting, it is a gamble, and nothing is certain.

i do see the hazards of letting someone pass and baiting them into anything. i am sure it can be effective if used in combination with the cage.

that being said, i respect both opinions of both dr. sick and brandon, being that both have more experience than my 6 months of mma training and few years of boxing/wrestling.

[Ari Bolden]

Ari, your avatar seems very similar to Bar Fresa in Liverpool. In fact, I'm 90% sure it is! :D

Jay, it is. I wrote the forward to that book and have several stories in is as well. Its a GOOD read!

As for this thread and the topic, I actually think Brian and Brandon both have valid arguments. As Ryan has already pointed out, different combat philosophies will produce different ideas and results. If there was a BEST way of doing something then all the fighters in the world would be doing it and winning with it hands down.

We know this not to be the case. Wrestlers beat strikers, Jits guys beat wrestlers. Strikers beat jits guys. Man-if you guys can't point me to a style that works 100% of the time and is philosophically sound-I am in. I will drop everything right now and go train "Ultimate-do".

My personal experience and knowledge over the years leads me to certain conclusions about what is best in MMA, fighting and self defense. I am not trying to be a fence sitter but I honesty thing both theories of Brain and Brandon hold water. Having said that however, I would have my own personal way of tackling a fight in the cage.

If I may, for what it is worth:
-I would not try to fight inside someone's guard.
-I would not try to submit from inside someone's guard (cardinal no no)
-I would work my hardest to break the guard and get dominate position (side, mount or back)
-When 2 tigers fight, one is injured and the other one dies (old Chinese fighting quote). The longer the fight goes, the better chance your gonna loose.
-I realize that there are strategies and wanting to push fights until the later rounds. I am NOT A STRIKER nor heavily trained in boxing or muay thai. I don't use that range as my strength so I want to close the gap and ALPHA dog someone as quick as possible.
-Submissions from the guard are money and if you are in 'bad' spot', having guard on a guy is good (obviously). Breaking them down so they can't bash you is even better.

Now having said all that, I have seen some amazing GnP from guard. I've seen Forrest get the shit knocked out of him from Guard smashers. This looks pretty viable to me. The proof that it can work is there.

The question as always (or rather the statement) that Brian already wrote was that " The moves work-its people that fail at doing them." Obviously Forrest fell victim to getting beat on his back while he had someone in his guard because either 1) his guard isn't that good (or wan;t for those fights 2) he was tired 3) he got rocked and that is all it takes to loose focus.

I love a GOOD debate. I'll say things like I think something is shit but please be aware that ad hominem attacks (lit. attacking the person, not the point they are making) is never tolerated on our forum. I hadn't seen it in this case but I am making sure it doesn't spiral down that path.

Carry on-we can all learn from one another.

[Ryan]

Ari said it best. Nothing works all the time.

[JayC]

Jay, it is. I wrote the forward to that book and have several stories in is as well. Its a GOOD read!


Woah, awesome :) We have something in common then...ish!


I agree with Ryan, Ari's put it the best there with this comment:


I would have my own personal way of tackling a fight in the cage.

[MatzeOne]

Ed:
If you watch Maia's other fights, he has the strangest (but effective) counter to the sprawl. He shoots, his opponent sprawls and then he pulls guard.

I mean seriously? Who does that and makes it work for them.

All hail Maia (there is hope for the jiu jitsu fighter after all!!!)

I know Marcelo does. But he's been doing it only in grappling until now. It's in his book "the X-Guard".

I can't add something new to the topic tho.

[Ryan]

Ari- maybe Maia shoots before pulling guard to avoid the slam.

[Dr Sick]

tallsilkyslim,

You can also find a pictorial step by step in BJ Penn's Mixed Martial Arts The Book of Knowledge pages 216 - 217 of what he calls "Escaping the Cage". Again, he demonstrates it from a little closer up to the cage than when we do it, but essentially it's the same idea.

I do feel though, that if you do it from that range against a guy that's been trained in this type of cage craft, he'll keep you from threading the needle and getting your leg to pass underneath yourself, thus effectively holding you down in guard and trapping you against the cage.

I think the latest you can put this type of Cage Escape into effect is from Simple/Scissor Sweep range, and even from there it will be a fight. If you don't get your shin across your opponent before he crushes you into the cage, you'll have a hard time making enough space to get that blocking mechanism in place and threading the needle/passing your own guard will be almost impossible.

[Tallsilkyslim]

tallsilkyslim,

You can also find a pictorial step by step in BJ Penn's Mixed Martial Arts The Book of Knowledge pages 216 - 217 of what he calls "Escaping the Cage". Again, he demonstrates it from a little closer up to the cage than when we do it, but essentially it's the same idea.

I do feel though, that if you do it from that range against a guy that's been trained in this type of cage craft, he'll keep you from threading the needle and getting your leg to pass underneath yourself, thus effectively holding you down in guard and trapping you against the cage.

I think the latest you can put this type of Cage Escape into effect is from Simple/Scissor Sweep range, and even from there it will be a fight. If you don't get your shin across your opponent before he crushes you into the cage, you'll have a hard time making enough space to get that blocking mechanism in place and threading the needle/passing your own guard will be almost impossible.

I will definitely check it out. Is it designed to get you back to your feet or reverse or both? Thanks in advance.

[Dr Sick]

I will definitely check it out. Is it designed to get you back to your feet or reverse or both? Thanks in advance.

Two people will use the same move in two completely different ways.

I think in the most basic sense it used to get back to the feet. However, you can use it simply to keep your opponent occupied trying to keep you down so that he doesn't have a lot of tools to strike with.

Also on the following pages, Mr. Penn shows a switch which is used as a reverse.

[willufc]

I am very fond of hearing things from you Dr. Sick... I wish I was an MMA fighter training with you.

BJ Penn's Bokk of Knowledge is awesome... Read it last November although I cannot remember the details.

[Adam]

Potent: MMA Documentary Pt1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JweTANu3bCw

Dunno if u guys have seen this (probably have) but i found this to be very enlightening on the metal and physical aspect of MMA. Got some good insights from some top notch fighters.
I even learn't some techniques thanks to El Guapo.