What degree black belt is Royce Gracie?

[Ari Bolden]

I was looking at a photo today of Royce and Helio at the LAB in AZ. They both had their gis and belts on. I counted the stripes on Royce's belt and it was 7 (as in 7th degree Black belt)

All records indicate that he is a 4th degree (but this was awarded to him just before 1993 when entering the UFC). It also says that this was not recognize officially?

Anyone care to shed some light....I am just curious

[Dondo]

Ari, you are in town??? did not know. obviously that is where i train, and live nearby. would be an honor to meet up. i'll PM you my contact info if you have time. thx!

[Dondo]

according to Wikipedia he is considered a 5th degree blackbelt...for what it's worth. you know how trustworthy and accurate the internet can be

[Ari Bolden]

Nick:

No, I am still at home in Victoria. Got your phone number via PM...thanks. When I hit AZ again...we'll meet up fo shizzle!!!

[Dondo]

sounds good my friend...hope to catch up!

[Dannicus]

If you go by http://www.gracie.com/riofed/beltranking.html which according to the Copyright info on the bottom, it says Royce is a 4th degree black belt as of 2000 but that was not formally certified.

When he came to my old school this past October, so Oct 2008. He had 6 stripes on his belt, so presumably 6th degree. Which follows closely with the Official Federation Criteria (http://www.ibjjf.org/graduation.htm) that reads:

You may request your 4th, 5th or 6th degrees 5 years after being awarded the previous degree.

With many of the Gracie's on Helio's side of the family, have higher rankings than what the Federation has officially for them. Royce is 42 years old. He received his blackbelt at 18. If you follow the formula, he meets the criteria for a 6th degree black belt.

But that is all stuff well above my comprehension. His degree in my book, is "Make me tap out any time he feels like it" degree.

[NebS]

"tap me any time he feels like it" degree.

Well, I had no idea you swung that way...Whatever floats your boat I guess...

JK!

[Turf]

Back in Nov. he was rockin' 6 stripes on that black belt. That is according to some of my friends pictures on myspace. I didn't get to go to the seminar.
________
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[younwha]

Yodan, Rokudan, Nanadan... really doesn't matter. All that matters is (like said above) that he can definitely kick my ass

[Dannicus]

I'll tell ya though, I was just looking over at the Gracie Academy website. If you look at the opening page, there is a timeline at the bottom. Click on the 2008 timeline link, and there is a graphic with Helio, Rorion, Ryron, and Rener. In that graphic you can see Ryron and Rener's stripes on their belts. That picture has Ryron with a 5th degree black belt and Rener with a 4th degree. If that is the case, it throws a whole new angle on the belt ranking topic. They both were promoted to Black Belt by Helio in 2002 which by IBJJF standards means they can only attain the rank of 2nd degree at this point in their lives.

I'm sure they got their stripes from Helio, he is the Grand Master, so he can do what he likes.

[Brandon Quick]

Matt Hughes made him look like a 1993 blackbelt.

[Ari Bolden]

Matt Hughes made him look like a 1993 blackbelt.

(insert plug for the evolution of jiu jitsu here:D)

Yes-Hughes destroyed him. That fight still gives me knots in my belly. I wanted to live and believe the dreams that BJJ was all powerful and that technique could prevail over wrestling and LnP. I was shattered than night!

But not 48 hours later, I remember sitting on the exact couch I had watched that UFC on, reading Mastering the Rubber Guard...and it filled me with hope again.

It worked for me and I am loving the 10th Planet Journey.:p

[willufc]

How do you know if the degree of being a black belt is official or not anyway? Just wondering because I just don't have any idea of the belting process after the black belt...

[Herm]

Matt Hughes made him look like a 1993 blackbelt.

pwnage!!! :eek: :rolleyes: :D

[icebergphat]

the thing is that most people still believe that Gracie jiu jitsu and Brazilian jiu jitsu are exactly the same thing. This is just not the case. Brazilian jiu jitsu these days is very sport oriented and not as street combative as it once was. What Carlos, Helio and Rolls Gracie were doing is very different in its approach to similar submissions. While BJJ is growing at an accelerated pace with brand new techniques, GJJ which is Helios variation of the original art his brother trained, has been expanding its variations of moves that exist already, for the last 30 years or so. Not many people have noticed this due to the fact that most people in the world are training "sport" BJJ. So. In BJJ stripes after black belt are given out after time has passed. In GJJ also called BJJ, stripes are based more on technical knowledge plus ability at the present time. Take this in consideration, Rickson was considered a 7th degree long ago in since his days in japan. Now he is listed on some sites as 8th degree. That rank was and still is "unofficial" among the IBJJF/Carlos Gracie Jr. but it's stated by many Grandmasters on the gracie mag site that Rickson is on a whole another level when it comes to the rest of the world was never beaten ever at black belt. So, sport wise Royce might only be considered a 4th or 5th degree but in Helios, Rorion's, and Rickson's eyes he is a 6 or 7th degree. The two variations of BJJ give practitioners completely different results in each others realms as stated on the Gracie University web site. When Rickson spoke about Carlos Gracie Jr last year at the promotion gathering, he said that he felt they were under two different "flags". He didn't mean schools, he was talking about styles. He misses the days when they all trained together under one BJJ initiative.

[CEB]

Funny thing is that what Carlos Jr. actually does and teaches is not that different if there are any differences at all. It is what his black belts teach where the differences surface. Master Carlos does not run a dictatorship.

What little I have learned from him has been very old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Especially the bottom guard game.

I'm curious about the following quote:
.... When Rickson spoke about Carlos Gracie Jr last year at the promotion gathering, he said that he felt they were under two different "flags". He didn't mean schools, he was talking about styles. He misses the days when they all trained together under one BJJ initiative.

How do you know this? Did Rickson tell you this? Just curious.

Thanks

[Ghosted3]

Funny thing is that what Carlos Jr. actually does and teaches is not that different if there are any differences at all. It is what his black belts teach where the differences surface. Master Carlos does not run a dictatorship.

What little I have learned from him has been very old school Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Especially the bottom guard game.

I'm curious about the following quote:


How do you know this? Did Rickson tell you this? Just curious.

Thanks

When Rickson talked about the flags, I took it as 1 is Gracie Barra, and the other is Gracie (instert here...Humatia for example).

[icebergphat]

I didn't mean to make it seem like i was saying Master Carlos specifically is the reason why the styles taught at the schools varied. But, it is common knowledge that his fathers lineage had a very different more aggressive sport oriented approach in BJJ than does Helios. Helio himself has expressed that fact, and its also documented as the reason why Helio separated himself from the the original BJJ Confederation which he himself built but handed to his family and friends after he retired from competition. It's not far fetched to believe that many black belts from a school that internationally promotes sport competition BJJ would take it a step further and modify BJJ to meet the demands of the sport. This practice has widely spread. its not like im the first person to say this. Many people on the net have realized this. It's a very hot topic. Please understand that I'm not saying anything is diluted I'm just saying it's different. So they rank differently. I have nothing but respect for all that is Jiu Jitsu and and the IBJJF as well as the IGJFF. I've never spoke to Rickson but i have read tons of his interviews over the years in many of them he discusses the differences between his fathers BJJ and the BJJ as we more commonly know it. He discusses the strain between his family and how it effects their BJJ practices. i will try to post a link so you can see what i mean. I train at both a "sport/self defense" school and a Gracie Academy Combative School to me there' s a big difference in a lot of things. I love both and use what i can for my growth and advantage. I t comes down to the individual and not the style.

[icebergphat]

When Rickson talked about the flags, I took it as 1 is Gracie Barra, and the other is Gracie (instert here...Humatia for example).

There has always been different flags because many of the original Black belts and grandmasters in BJJ are not Gracies/they were either taught BJJ or actually helped build the style. A few Grandmaters are credited with adding techniques to the style. Most flags get along very well.

There are two reasons why there are two different flags between the Gracie clans:

1. On both sides people feel that more credit is due to their grandmaster.
2. Helio and Carlos Sr's sons were promoting different approaches to BJJ and couldn't come to terms with each others methods.

[CEB]

I'm curious.

Does anybody know who awarded Master Carlos Jr. his black belt?

Thanks.

[Dr Sick]

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

-Theodore Roosevelt-

[icebergphat]

I'm curious.

Does anybody know who awarded Master Carlos Jr. his black belt?

Thanks.

It was Helio when he ran the school under Carlos. He also became professor under Helio.

[Dannicus]

I'm curious.

Does anybody know who awarded Master Carlos Jr. his black belt?

Thanks.

Wikipedia says his father, and that would make sense, but we all know how accurate Wikipedia is...

So the WikiAnswer would be Carlos Gracie Sr.

[CEB]

Master Carlos got his black belt from Grandmaster Helio. They ALL trained in the same dojo. It seems to be quite a family. According to an article in the memorial issue Gracie Mag, Grandmaster Helio and his first wife couldn’t seem to have children. This according to the article left a feeling of incompleteness. The solution was that grandmaster Carlos gave his brother 8 of his children to raise. The youngest was Rolls who was 4 months at the time. The other 7 kids were Oneika, Sonja, Geysa, Rose, Robson, Reyson, and Carlson.

I’ve been to different Gracie Barra schools. Sport Jiu Jitsu has had a tremendous impact on a lot of black belts. A lot of the good sport competitors advocate open guard play or things like going straight into half guard etc….. That is not what Master Carlos Jr. teaches. What he does seems to be pretty dogmatic old school. Examples…. Never open your closed guard willingly. Your opponent’s goal is to pass your guard and achieve positional dominance. To open your guard makes your opponent’s job easier. Never seize half guard when you can achieve full guard because you are already half passed. He was adamant about this last June.

To me it seems Master Carlos’ primary goal to spread the healthy Jiu Jitsu life style. Sport Jiu Jitsu just seems to be a tool for achieving. In the Official Gracie Barra fundamental program all classes start with the self defense curriculum.

I think Master Carlos gets credited/blamed for a lot of things he does not teach. While Gracie Barra is a juggernaut in sport Jiu Jitsu. However, Master Carlos himself seems vey old school to me. Gracie Barra is not a dictatorship. It can't be, it wouldn't work that way. You pull the reins too tight and the horse will buck.

But that is just me. You guys know more about this jiu jitsu stuff than I do.

[Tallsilkyslim]

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

-Theodore Roosevelt-

QFT!!!!

This would go nicely in the "Be yourself" thread as well. Great quote.

[Ghosted3]

I'm curious.

Does anybody know who awarded Master Carlos Jr. his black belt?

Thanks.

But who told Helio he should promote Carlos Jr.?

[PacificFlows]

Carlos Jr. makes a mean six dollar burger.

[Ghosted3]

To me it seems Master Carlos’ primary goal to spread the healthy Jiu Jitsu life style. Sport Jiu Jitsu just seems to be a tool for achieving. In the Official Gracie Barra fundamental program all classes start with the self defense curriculum.

The IBJJF was made to help sport JJ become mainstream, as well as make some money. Carlos was wise enough to try to get a Federation going for unified rules ect. Like you said he catches flack for it, and I agree that he is more old school.

[younwha]

But who told Helio he should promote Carlos Jr.?

I wasn't aware that Helio needed to ask permission to promote students lol :confused:

[Ghosted3]

I wasn't aware that Helio needed to ask permission to promote students lol :confused:

Lol, no he does not :p . After a training session though, a student told Helio he should give Carlos Jr. his black belt, and it was done.

[Otto]

I mean, really, who the F*** cares?
I know, I know, it's just for curiosity sake, but you KNOW where parts of these discussions lead to for some fools.
Do we really doubt his jits or his background?
NAH!

[TaylorBJJ]

Matt Hughes made him look like a 1993 blackbelt.

Yea, but a 1993 Royce would have made Matt look like a 2007(or whenever the fight was) whitebelt.

Not making excuses, Matt definitely destroyed him. But IMO...

Royce prime > Matt prime

[michaelwbray]

Most modern MMA fighters in my opinion would defeat a 1993 Royce Gracie. This is simply because they have evolved more as fighters. They are all knowledged in submission defense and have IMO better striking the Royce. Royce had a big part in starting that evolution.

[Tagg1080]

to the original topic: it is tradition to some people, that when an instructor retires or dies, that all of his black belts get promoted.

i am not sure how that works in the grappling world, but in kenpo that is the tradition.


and that can be by varying degrees, i was told, as was another 1st degree, a few months ago, it came up, that if our instructor retired that day, he would promote us to 3rd dans and sensei titles to me and the other black belt.


this is not something he made up, a few people in our system have had that happen over the years, when Ed parker died his top black belts all went up a few belts.



so my guess would be that when helio passed away, the belt system got bumped up a little on those guys.

[gooch]

all i know is that he would be a double red belt if ari was in charge of handing out promotions

[AJ]

, it came up, that if our instructor retired that day, he would promote us to 3rd dans and sensei titles to me and the other black belt.


So if your instructor were to succumb to any unfortunate accidents then we would know where to look, right?

:)

That's an interesting notion though. It makes sense in a "keep the art alive" sort of way but objectively it just seems like inflation... almost devaluing the real world value of the belt ranks.

[Tagg1080]

i think the tradition comes from, if the instructor dies, a few people are promoted so that the art can stay alive, if the highest belt was a 5th, then the system would be locked at 5th, and as with my instructor, he has 1 3rd degree under him, 3 first degrees, and that is it.

the 3rd would get a 5th, and a big title, and 2 of the 1st's would get 3rds, so that the style would continue, and there would be a viable chain of command after he left.


even if something like that did happen, i would only wear the 3rd out of respect, but i would never go up again until i had my time and test in for the amount of time until i would have gotten my third.