Sprawl == Second defense?

[Tagg1080]

in our curriculum, the first defense to a "tackle" as we call it, is not the sprawl, the sprawl is labeled as a last resort.


does any1 teach anything before the sprawl?



as in, is it the only option? the first option? the last option? just a random option people like?


i am just curious

[CEB]

Tackle can be a lot of things. Someone can hit and wrap you high and you don't sprawl on that. Someone could tackle at the legs.

Problem with classifying something as a last resort move IMO is sometimes you only get one move.

Sprawl is not the only option. Sumigaeshi I thought worked real well until I started playing with really good wrestlers that are as big or bigger than me. I have to get the legs back or I lose the takedown. That other stuff don't work unless I have VERY good grip control with the gi is very good.

Without the gi I HAVE to sprawl or beat them to the tieup.

But I suck.

[jasper_milktoast]

are you referring to a shot when you say "tackle"?

tackling to me is american football, if so, you can headhunt for a "tackle".


if you are talking of a shot, a sprawl is incredibly effective. if they change levels quickly and you can't sprawl in time, then you could be using different techniques. sometimes they only get a single, sometimes both legs.

i am just not entirely sure what you are talking about when you say "tackle".

[Dr Sick]

We teach the following as our defensive/counter offensive strategy towards takedowns

Level 1 be aware of the takedown as a possibility
Level 2 footwork (if you can't touch me with a jab because of my footwork, you probably can't catch me for a takedown)
Level 3 Be the one taking the other guy down
Level 4 Hand Stop
Level 5 Forearm Stop
Level 6 Head Stop (use your head as a barrier)
Level 7 Sprawl/Wall (Hip Turn In... it's like running into a car)
Level 8 Switch (Ricco Chiapparelli once said of Dan Gable, that if there were a quarter of an inch between Coach Gable's back and the mat, he'd switch you at the very last moment even though you were the one initiating and controlling the majority of the takedown... This would be similar to Coach Chris Well's Suplex counter to the Hip Throw)

[Dave Bryan]

I'm guessing this is what you are talking about? If so here's a video on some defense of a double leg takedown.

http://superjudo.tv/morote-gari-defense-against-a-wrestler/

[BadKarmaRising]

in our curriculum, the first defense to a "tackle" as we call it, is not the sprawl, the sprawl is labeled as a last resort.


does any1 teach anything before the sprawl?



as in, is it the only option? the first option? the last option? just a random option people like?


i am just curious


I've been wrestling since I was 8 years old. At this point I doubt I could even learn to do anything else first. It's all automatic programning at this point. Come for the legs and my hips fling themselves back and down without asking permission.

I'm curious to know what you're using as a "first defense" for a double leg attempt.

[Chris_IslandMMA]

I'd say footwork is probably the "first line", if the shot is telegraphed you can just push down on the head and circle out. Just like striking the best defence is to not be there in the first place.

I personally like to "catch" shots and pumel in for an underhook as I really like the clinch game.

In MMA there is allways the Knee to the cranium :)

[Ryan]

I would give you a few answers....

1. If you are referring to a fight (MMA, street) and the other guy went for a takedown I would say striking would possibly be a first option but the takedown would either tie that option or be an incredibly close second.

2. If it were pure grappling I would say your instructor is nuts.

In wrestling, the only option is what you're going to do after the sprawl.

[Ryan]

I'd say footwork is probably the "first line", if the shot is telegraphed you can just push down on the head and circle out. Just like striking the best defence is to not be there in the first place.

I personally like to "catch" shots and pumel in for an underhook as I really like the clinch game.

In MMA there is allways the Knee to the cranium :)

Eds right, 9/10 when you throw in underhooks while blocking a shot you will be driven to a sprawl or atleast lowering your level so your weight is on their back

[CEB]

Sorry I deleted my post because I didn't think I wrote it in a way that made sense.

Your post did a good job of speaking my mind.

[Dr Sick]

In wrestling, the only option is what you're going to do after the sprawl.

Good point.

To each of the levels of defense/counter offense, there are follow ups.

A good sprawl followed by a cross face is a nice, low tech, high percentage shot killer. If your timing is good, a Wall to a Sprawl followed by a Cross Face is even better.

Hand stops and Forearm Stops followed my angular footwork and tight Uppercuts are a nice follow up.

And a Sprawl followed immediately with a counter shot works well sometimes too. Try to time it for when your opponent is coming up from underneath you. They never see your level change coming.

[Tagg1080]

dr sick, that is very close to our order of defenses.

the first defense we are taught is a "matador" style push off.

check with the hands, then the elbow/forearm, then grab them, THEN sprawl.

and of course, a nice smack to the temple goes a long way to!

[CEB]

If you are doing what I think you are doing then all of that stuff are aspects of the sprawl. The sprawl is what happens when you can't block or avoid the shot.

It is all one thing. You don't have time for more than one thing.

But that is just me, I'm just an old Judo guy.

[Ryan]

Good point.

To each of the levels of defense/counter offense, there are follow ups.

A good sprawl followed by a cross face is a nice, low tech, high percentage shot killer. If your timing is good, a Wall to a Sprawl followed by a Cross Face is even better.

Hand stops and Forearm Stops followed my angular footwork and tight Uppercuts are a nice follow up.

And a Sprawl followed immediately with a counter shot works well sometimes too. Try to time it for when your opponent is coming up from underneath you. They never see your level change coming.

I actually prefered a head and arm combo with the sprawl. I believe you have more options with it..... you can circle around for a cradle, you can re-direct the head and arm and go to their back for the take down, you can set up a gator roll and you can flatten them out and get your takedown points.

The crossface is very effective too. I like pushing the head down and going for a 3/4 nelson

[Dr Sick]

On a separate note, I think it is important to distinguish between a "tackle" and a "shot" A tackle type attack is, in my opinion, an in formal, untrained attack. Kind of like the one shown in the Judo clip posted earlier in this thread. Very few, skilled wrestlers will attack in that fashion. The guy is practically falling over already. My cousin and I call that the Scoobie Doo Zombie Shot. Arms outstretched, bent at the waist, Broken Posture.

A Shot starts with a level change and many times incorporates a knee dropping to the mat. This allows the shooter to keep his hips beneath his head and thus allows him to lift with the power of his legs vs. the muscles of the lower back and spinal column. In addition, a good shooter never has his hands outstretched. He reaches with his footwork and keeps his hands and elbows close to his side. A shot is much more difficult to defend than a tackle IMHO.

Freeze frame at :33 to see some pretty tight friggin shot form. Also at 1:37 Ricco drops for a fast shot albeit it was more of a High C vs. a Double. There's a beautiful re-shot counter attempt at 6:54

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Here's one more clip of Sean Sherk explaining how to enter into the shot with striking: http://erikpaulson.com/vidclips/2005_camp_sean.wmv (http://erikpaulson.com/vidclips/2005_camp_sean.wmv)

freeze frame at :28 and you can see the difference between a Scoobie Doo Zombie Shot (aka a tackle) and a Shot as done by a trained, professional.

[dialupking]

If you are doing what I think you are doing then all of that stuff are aspects of the sprawl. The sprawl is what happens when you can't block or avoid the shot.

It is all one thing. You don't have time for more than one thing.

But that is just me, I'm just an old Judo guy.

Well Ed, I'm a new Judo guy, and I'm still working on landing the sprawl. I'm better at avoiding the shot than I am sprawling out. I think the next time I attend club, I will work on my takedowns and sprawls more. Thanks for the thread guys :D

[Dr Sick]

I actually prefered a head and arm combo with the sprawl. I believe you have more options with it..... you can circle around for a cradle, you can re-direct the head and arm and go to their back for the take down, you can set up a gator roll and you can flatten them out and get your takedown points.

The crossface is very effective too. I like pushing the head down and going for a 3/4 nelson

It just goes to show you how a background can change the way you look at things. Your wrestling background has you looking to stuff the shot but to continue to engage in a grappling style fight.

My responses, without me being aware of it, were more from a standpoint of, "if this guy is trying to take me down, he's probably uncomfortable standing up, so I'm going to try to stuff the shot and disengage the grappling type of fight... if possible".

All that aside however, you're totally right. Snap downs and wrestling front headlocks are a nice deterrent once you kill your opponent's initial takedown attempt.

[AJ]

them old wrastlin skivvies really used to ride up

[Tagg1080]

all kenpo techniques i have ever seen, are geared towards staying standing, as i am sure you guys can admit, in a street fight tying yourself up on the ground isn't the most favored option when there are multiple attackers, or weapons. (i dare you guys do try some grappling with a knife in your hand, it is quite eye opening!)

our submission wrestling coach, who has an extensive wrestling background, always taught us that we should try to "matador" them first, and if that fails, to sprawl after that.


as a self defense standpoint, we are taught to just get them in the head, or elbow them in the back of the head as we are being taken down, etc..


i was just curious, because it seems that, to me, in mma, i have not really seen much in the way of defense, except the sprawl. We do not actively practice shooting, so i guess if we were with people that did it correctly, we might have a different approach.

[Ryan]

It just goes to show you how a background can change the way you look at things. Your wrestling background has you looking to stuff the shot but to continue to engage in a grappling style fight.

My responses, without me being aware of it, were more from a standpoint of, "if this guy is trying to take me down, he's probably uncomfortable standing up, so I'm going to try to stuff the shot and disengage the grappling type of fight... if possible".

All that aside however, you're totally right. Snap downs and wrestling front headlocks are a nice deterrent once you kill your opponent's initial takedown attempt.

Great observation! I am totally more comfortable on the ground than I am standing up. Now, I may reconsider if the guy I am in combat with is a great grappler and I would give my standup a chance. In school my friends thought I was stupid for taking fights to the ground because they feel you get winded quicker on the ground. They also didn't like the fact that if you get punched on the ground your head only has 2-3 inches to go before you hit your head on the ground.

[Ryan]

We do not actively practice shooting, so i guess if we were with people that did it correctly, we might have a different approach.

Why not? Doesn't your teacher feel that, that puts a huge gaping hole in your game?

[Tagg1080]

we are first and foremost a self defense school, teaching the core kenpo curriculum. kenpo itself has very limited grappling, and only splatterings of judo as most of the system is based in chinese boxing and other striking arts.


we do some judo, but as you guys can see from my youtubes, we are not the greatest. Most of our ideas are to stay standing, and disable the opponent as soon as possible to run away. Aggressive things such as take downs are not emphasized.

they are valuable yes, but part of the core material with the goal of simple self defense techniques? we do not see them as top priority.


i am not saying they are useless, but with the general opinion of going to the ground in a street fight is not the place you want to be, puting the fight there is very far down on our to-do lists.

[Tagg1080]

which is why we are taught to hit them, or push them out of the way, and hit them, instead of letting them connect.

[CEB]

Well Ed, I'm a new Judo guy, and I'm still working on landing the sprawl. I'm better at avoiding the shot than I am sprawling out. I think the next time I attend club, I will work on my takedowns and sprawls more. Thanks for the thread guys :D

When I was learning Judo we didn't work on shooting or sprawling.

You practically couldn't work Marote Gari in competition because it wasn't a Real Judo throw. It looked too much like a tackle. Have no idea how competitions view these takedowns after 1990. My last Judo tournament I believe was 1988 or 1989.

Most of my Wrestling stuff comes from Wrestling and no gi Jiu Jitsu. It is just that I suck and am not a real Wrestler. My son is the real Wrestler. But I was the one the paid for those camps and clinics. He better help me out or I will break his dinner plate. :D :D :D

[Ryan]

we are first and foremost a self defense school, teaching the core kenpo curriculum. kenpo itself has very limited grappling, and only splatterings of judo as most of the system is based in chinese boxing and other striking arts.


we do some judo, but as you guys can see from my youtubes, we are not the greatest. Most of our ideas are to stay standing, and disable the opponent as soon as possible to run away. Aggressive things such as take downs are not emphasized.

they are valuable yes, but part of the core material with the goal of simple self defense techniques? we do not see them as top priority.


i am not saying they are useless, but with the general opinion of going to the ground in a street fight is not the place you want to be, puting the fight there is very far down on our to-do lists.

so, what does your instructor say you should do (short of standing up) if the fight goes to the ground?

[CEB]

which is why we are taught to hit them, or push them out of the way, and hit them, instead of letting them connect.

Yep a lot of people who are not grapplers think that way.

A good shooter comes HARD and they DRIVE and they do NOT stop The consequences if your kung fu punch doesn't stop them is kind of serious.

I teach to try to stop the shot ( sprawl ). Then beat the Hell out of them.

Then again I train with a guy named Lee. I can't stop his shot. I just can't. I pull guard as soon as I can. In a fight with someone like that I would just have to hope I could hit them with a crobar before they think about shooting.

But that is just me.

[Ryan]

Yep a lot of people who are not grapplers think that way.

A good shooter comes HARD and they DRIVE and they do NOT stop The consequences if your kung fu punch doesn't stop them is kind of serious.

I teach to try to stop the shot ( sprawl ). Then beat the Hell out of them.

Then again I train with a guy named Lee. I can't stop his shot. I just can't. I pull guard as soon as I can. In a fight with someone like that I would just have to hope I could hit them with a crobar before they think about shooting.

But that is just me.

Thats right, some people are just entirely too fast or too strong or too technical to stop their shots. I wrestled guys in high school who ended up wrestling at Central Michigan University that could grab your ankle for a trip just as fast as the ref blew the whistle. Some guys drill so much that it becomes a science.

[Chris_IslandMMA]

I need to get some mat time with good wrestlers, I'm from the UK originally and have just not been exposed to it enough!

That's basically what I do when I shoot, keep driving them back into the cage and finish off from there.

[Tagg1080]

i have never trained with any1 that is great at shooting, so i am sticking by my instruction till i get my ass handed to me! :D


if it does go the ground, we have been having a submission wrestling guy come down and teach us some positions, and we have been doing some grappling drills, but almost every drill is towards the goal of getting up. that is our goal, but if we hit the ground, then we do have some knowledge.

my instructor has always said we need to know every range, or at least be familiar with it, cuz we never know what the attacker will do, and they dictate our actions, we do not pick how we defend ourselves.

[dialupking]

When I was learning Judo we didn't work on shooting or sprawling.

You practically couldn't work Marote Gari in competition because it wasn't a Real Judo throw. It looked too much like a tackle. Have no idea how competitions view these takedowns after 1990. My last Judo tournament I believe was 1988 or 1989.

Most of my Wrestling stuff comes from Wrestling and no gi Jiu Jitsu. It is just that I suck and am not a real Wrestler. My son is the real Wrestler. But I was the one the paid for those camps and clinics. He better help me out or I will break his dinner plate. :D :D :D


That's the spirit Ed! In club and class we don't work on shooting or sprawling either. We do a lot of throws, hold downs, counters to hold downs and throw combinations.

A kid in club that I train with did 8 years of wrestling. He recently took first place in the Michigan Open for USJA in the White through Green Belt division. His Judo BLOWS, but his wrestling is so good that he is able to pull off hold-downs for victories. It's pretty lame in competition but he is stacking up medals. I just want to be able to knock the chip off his shoulder a bit. It'll take time, but I'm willing to work at it. I'm gonna hit up a different gym for the summer and hopefully when I come back in the fall I can shut him down a bit ;) .

I'm still loving all the tips guys.

[dialupking]

all kenpo techniques i have ever seen, are geared towards staying standing, as i am sure you guys can admit, in a street fight tying yourself up on the ground isn't the most favored option when there are multiple attackers, or weapons. (i dare you guys do try some grappling with a knife in your hand, it is quite eye opening!)

our submission wrestling coach, who has an extensive wrestling background, always taught us that we should try to "matador" them first, and if that fails, to sprawl after that.


as a self defense standpoint, we are taught to just get them in the head, or elbow them in the back of the head as we are being taken down, etc..


i was just curious, because it seems that, to me, in mma, i have not really seen much in the way of defense, except the sprawl. We do not actively practice shooting, so i guess if we were with people that did it correctly, we might have a different approach.

My Judo instructor plays Eskrima (Philippine style Knife Fights). He always talks about how much the real life fight game changes with the elements of a knife or a club. I was reading (or at least looking over) my copy of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and Helio put a whole chapter of the book into defending yourself from an attacker with a weapon. It's some real awesome stuff!

[younwha]

I recommend you start drilling more than just 'getting up' - because if a good wrestler shoots and gets you on your back... you're not going to get up.

[NebS]

Takedown = sprawl

Sprawl > Takedown

[007jujitsu]

personally i really like a sprawled out thai clinch. Framing with your forearms on their shoulders/upper chest, pinching your elbows together with your legs back enough that they can't grab them.

[NebS]

I personally would like to go for the Hardcore after a sprawl, but I'm a newb and I don't know how :(

[younwha]

My Judo instructor plays Eskrima (Philippine style Knife Fights). He always talks about how much the real life fight game changes with the elements of a knife or a club. I was reading (or at least looking over) my copy of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and Helio put a whole chapter of the book into defending yourself from an attacker with a weapon. It's some real awesome stuff!

We do some Arnis and have a stick (escrima stick) and knife seminar about three times a year... it's amazing how quickly you become overwhelmed from an attacker with a stick - especially someone who knows how to use it... you're really foooked.

[Tagg1080]

we have a guy come down twice a month to do modern arnis with us, he has been training in it for years, and just came back from training in the Philippines for a month.


he is INSANE!!!

[flying gogo-plata]

i think getting out of the way, redirecting ur opponents take down, and trying to block with the arms are all part of the sprawl. if ur going against even a semi-decent wrestler this stuff is just there to slow down the shot enough for u to successfully sprawl out, it won't stop a shot! besides why would u want to? if u get a guy to his knees and elbows u've got a ridiculous number of high percentage options:cool: d'arce, spin to the back, spin to the truck, anaconda, cow-catcher/hardcore, vice-choke, quarter nelson, peruvian neck-tie, japanease necktie, etc. i love the spawl:D