Chokes in real life combat situations

[Martin]

Jiu jitsu, after all, is a game of death. Created by the japanese, its purpose was to immobalise and/or kill. There were no tap outs, no second chances, no point systems or fouls. Just a down and dirty, incredibly bad assed style of combat. If you found yourself in a choke hold there was no coming round after you faded to black, it was lights out...permanently. This thread is inspired by this line of thought.


I dig chokes in a big way and i always like to find out about them. Whilst there is a lot of interesting stuff out there i haven't found any info on what happens after the person has gone to sleep and the choke is still held. I think this is maybe because jiu jitsu is widely viewed as a sport and obviously there is no need to continue to hold the choke once the person is out.

Getting this info could be very useful i think for people in real life combat situations such as in a warzone or out on the street. I want to know stuff like; How long should a choke be held to put the person to sleep for a couple minutes? I think this info would be good for the street, you dont want to permanently hurt them but you want to have them asleep for a long enough time for you to get the cops or to do whatever you gotta do.... How long can a choke be held for before it casues permanent damage?... What measures should be taken to resussitate (sp) someone who as been choked for too long.
And finally how long before the person dies?

Obviously i know some chokes are tighter than others and it depends how well they are sunk in but lets just say its an averagly tight choke and sunk in avergely well.



p.s if this thread is deemed too dark or sinister or in any way damaging to the forum then please feel free to delete it

[rocknroll]

5 seconds to choke somebody unconsious and double the time you choke someone he needs to wakeup after he has passed out

and about tu finish someone of with a choke, i dont know

[AJ]

I read a study (can't find it at the moment) that you would literally have to hold a cardio choke for 2 minutes in order to kill someone. I don't recall the range for brain injury but it's probably somewhere from 1-2 minutes.

The study found that chokes held under 30 seconds caused no permanent injury and typically recovery time was anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes.

The study had no observations on repetitious chokes. Like repeatadly choking people unconcious within a 1 hour window.

Oh, and it said that the only known people to die from cardio chokes had some type of hereditary heart defect.

[NebS]

I read a study (can't find it at the moment) that you would literally have to hold a cardio choke for 2 minutes in order to kill someone. I don't recall the range for brain injury but it's probably somewhere from 1-2 minutes.

The study found that chokes held under 30 seconds caused no permanent injury and typically recovery time was anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes.

The study had no observations on repetitious chokes. Like repeatadly choking people unconcious within a 1 hour window.

Oh, and it said that the only known people to die from cardio chokes had some type of hereditary heart defect.

In CPR they tell you about how long the brain can survive without oxygen, and its within the first 1-2-3 minutes that are very critical to get oxygen to the brain. Nothing saying you can't live on, but there would be some pernament damage.

[CEB]

FYI - FWIW

If you do choke someone OUT. Then they start spazzing or or moving on you. It is convulsions. They are not resisting. You need to let go if you don't want to go to prison for a long time.

[AJ]

In CPR they tell you about how long the brain can survive without oxygen, and its within the first 1-2-3 minutes that are very critical to get oxygen to the brain. Nothing saying you can't live on, but there would be some pernament damage.

Cardio chokes stop the blood from reaching the brain. Oxygen chokes stop the oxygen from reaching the blood which reaches your brain.

[RitsuRei]

just a quick response I'm in the middle of working. I teach us military and some private people how to subdue and to use deadly force. Subduing is mostly strikes, arm cranks and pinning so you can get cuffs or zip ties on them. Deadly Force is a combination of strikes, arm cranks, death blows (like heel striking to the head) and chokes. There's a lot more that goes into it then just jj you don't really want to be fighting for position too long you never know if the person your fighting has a friend somewhere close by, personally id try to break someones neck before just choking them out, its quicker. We actually drill movements designed to take an attacker down, break something, or kill them, then move on to the next one. We drill chokes because you never know whats going to happen. This is just my experience and what I've actually done in training and taught.

[Ari Bolden]

3 minutes without air
3 days without water
3 weeks without food


Always stuck with me (even if it is a rough guide)

[Otto]

Okay, old cop lecturing here.
Three things you need to consider when fighting. Tactical, legal and moral implications. You got the tactical down pretty well, but you best get the other two down right quick.
These are cause of death findings from cases some of my fellow officers have been involved in. Not necessarily as the person doing the choking, but as the cop who answered the call.
1.The reported cause of death was asphyxiation as a result of manual compression of neck.
2.Accute cardiorespitory arrest as result of compression to the neck from a restraint hold.
3. Cause of death was a combination of of mechanical asphyxia and compression of vascular circulation to the brain.
4.Reported cause of death was cardiorespitory arrest caused by asphyxia as a result of strangulation and aspiration of gastric contents. (he got choked out, puked and drowned in his own vomit)
I could go on and list twenty more, but you get the picture. You don't EVER want to hear those terms in a court of law because you choked somebody out. Life, as you know it, would be f'n over.
I think it's important we all remember, that chances are, if we HAVE to fight, the guy is probably rip roarin a-hole. And he's probably been drinking, smoking, snorting God knows what or ingesting whatever. ALL these things change the physiology of the choke you just put on him. What the reaction of your fellow jujtsu athlete might be can be completely different to a drunken or high shit-for-brains. Even if he deserves the good beating his mama never gave him, these deaths happen all too often. And if YOU are the "chokee", brother, you are screwed.
Check with your instructors about the mechanics of chokes, the legal implications and the medical implications. If he/she doesn't know, find another instructor. It's cheaper than finding a lawyer.

[RitsuRei]

I agree completely if i was in a bar fight or a fight on the street i wouldn't choke someone out id rather break his arm trying to subdue him at least you can stand in front of the judge and say you were just defending yourself and of course the best course of action is to just walk away its not worth the hassle in the long run!

[Martin]

Good coments guys. Can anybody point me in the direction of an article or site that deals with all this stuff. I just find it so interesting. (I sound like some kinda would be serial killer lol)

[AJ]

Found some literature... here's an article: http://judoinfo.com/chokes5.htm

It's titled: Deaths Allegedly Caused by the Use of "Choke Holds" by: E. K. Koiwai, M.D.

Highlights:
* No fatalities as a result of shime-waza have been reported in the sport of judo since its inception in 1882.

* The electroencephalogram (EEG): convulsions that appear in the unconscious stage are very similar to those of petit mal of epilepsy. No deleterious effects remained after the use of the choke hold. It is considerable less dangerous than a knockout in boxing.

[Otto]

Martin,
Here's some that might help you. Some of them have various links to other articles on the same subject.

http://www.datenschlag.org/howto/atem/english/DiM89.html

http://harfordmedlegal.typepad.com/forensics_talk/2006/11/duke_lacrosse_c.html

http://www.charlydmiller.com/RA/RAlibrary.html#2005chasreview

[Martin]

There is some really interesiting stuff in those articles. Seems like most of the bad situations arose from respiratory chokes and cats that didnt really know how to apply them properly.

I must admit though, im a vascular choke kinda guy, i aint really a fan of respiratory chokes. I find them really quite rough and barbaric and they can cause quite a bit of pain. A vascular choke compared to a respiratory choke is like comparing a classy lady, full of elegance and sophistacation to a common prostitue, with all the class and charm of a kick to the balls.

[flying gogo-plata]

eh i've always been a fan of the brutal approach :D paper-cutter, gogoplata, and kata-ha-jime ftw!!!!

[Otto]

I agree with you, Martin, vascular is the way of jitsu/grappling that I've been taught.
And, brother, I damn near fell of my chair reading your analogy. That was a funny line. I'd like to quote that if I may. (in the appropriate company, of course) Man, I'm still smiling.