Japanese Jujutsu

[Ari Bolden]

This was spawned by the Korean Jiu Jitsu thread. I wanted to showcase what my classical background and training in jiu jitsu looked like. There are so many styles out there, all with their own flavor.

While this isn't the exact style I trained, my classical training was very similar to this. This is why I joke SO often in my threads about "tapping" out. We trained techniques to break and 'stop' aggressive people ;-):

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My modern jujutsu (goshin) was much like this:

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I am sure my years as a doorman has altered this stuff a bit but it gives you an idea of what JJJ and my style/philosophy of combat is about.

Enjoy!

[Martin]

Japanses jujtsu is definately appealing to me. I'm adding it to my list of things to take up when i'm able. BJJ, Judo and JJJ

[Tagg1080]

I wouldn't claim official rank in jjj, but we definitely have it in our system.

It is a wonderful thing, extremely useful for self defense in my opinion.

[NebS]

Makes me proud to be a brown belt in JJJ.

That second video was pretty cool, and not to bash them or anything, but I'd like to see their non-dominant hand throws, just for comparison ;)

[Justaguy]

Looks like some nice stuff.

[Hadaka Jime]

Oh boy i am not a fan of the 2nd videos gym

oh god, i hate that guy. He and his team of BB teachers are phenominal but they aren't my gym of choice i have trained with them 2 times, the first time i went we were doing rear naked chokes, and they laughed at me for saying that and said it's called a sleeper, and said a rear naked choke is something my wife does to me or some corny shit. Him and his team are great teachers i just couldn't take the regime

I went there when i was a purple belt and was able to tap 2 of there black belts... it's that kinda place

[Tagg1080]

One of the beautiful things about JJJ, is that it blends very well with many other arts. We do FMA, Kenpo, Chin Na, and Aikido, and they all blend right into the JJJ, perfectly.

It is a wonderful and extremely versatile art.

[rocknroll]

I went there when i was a purple belt and was able to tap 2 of there black belts... it's that kinda place

i think a black belt in jjj is comparable to a blue in bjj, depends on the style of course

i trained ninjutsu (which is almost jjj except for the stances and katas), and it was pretty cool, at least the self defense (jjj) stuff, they always showed us how to break bones :D

but i stopped ninjutsu, i didnt want to learn traditional stances and katas and stuff like that

[prodigypenn]

umm ninjutsu doesnt train in kata, if u trained kata u werent studying ninjutsu

[rocknroll]

we talk about bujinkan (ninjutsu) from hatsumi right ? of course there is katas, had to practice gokyo no katas all the time

[Matt]

That second video is awsome :) JJJ is actually more appealing to me now.

[younwha]

Does JJJ offer any sort of striking? Aside from the 'stun' strike before a throw or lock.

[CEB]

Probably depends on the Ryuha. The Jujutsu system I did had a lot of atemi. At brown and later you started to get learn some Kyusho.

Atemi is kuzushi. :D

[CEB]

One of the beautiful things about JJJ, is that it blends very well with many other arts. We do FMA, Kenpo, Chin Na, and Aikido, and they all blend right into the JJJ, perfectly.

It is a wonderful and extremely versatile art.

Chin Na is not a style unless it is some bogus made up style from some round eye.

Saying Chin Na is a style is like saying 'punch' is a style. All Gung Fu has Chin Na. I have played with 2 groups of Wing Chun guys ( Leung Ting's, William Cheung's groups) Hung Ga gung fu, and Chen Taijiquan and they all do Chin Na. Just like they all punch or all kick.

[Acenes]

Probably depends on the Ryuha. The Jujutsu system I did had a lot of atemi. At brown and later you started to get learn some Kyusho.

Atemi is kuzushi. :D
:rolleyes:
that just made my day !!! (so far ... ).:D

[Malice]

I have a trained JJJ for mucho years and really like it a lot. One thing I was disappointed and surprised at when I started BJJ was the lack of throws that was so prevelant in my JJJ training. I've since learned why since training BJJ. One thing I liked about the 2nd vid is that they didn't pull the throws a lot. A lot of people see vids of jits training and don't see the power of the throws and automatically discount them as ineffective and like to say they would get right up from one. When done with intensity and correct form there are very few throws that someone would get up from on the concrete. The one thing I love about BJJ training over my JJJ training is the randori.

[Ari Bolden]

This sparked a discussion:D Love it!

Ok, where to start? The videos are just videos and not the particular art forms per se that I train in. I've never trained with these guys or anything. Brett's observation on their grappling sounds fair. I think I was just trying to showcase that my JJJ system has throws (as what most people would call 'judo throws' ...cringe) in it.

My JJJ, we use the JAPANESE NAMES for techniques. A rear naked choke isn't a sleeper:)

Comparing a JJJ BB to a BJJ guy is always a tough one. Saying a black belt is the equivalent to a blue belt could be correct knowing the amount of ne waza most JJJ systems do. The same goes for judo in my opinion. But to reverse this scenario, I would say a BJJ BB has the pure self defense 'well roundedness' of a mid level JJJ player.

It all depends on your focus. Its not a dig, its just the reality of the training methodology. That is why I chose to do both!

[Shonuff]

Interesting discussion... as usual I don't have time to jump in either. *sigh*

I have been doing JJJ for 20 years now, so I have some pretty deepset views on the subject.

[Tagg1080]

Chin Na is not a style unless it is some bogus made up style from some round eye.

Saying Chin Na is a style is like saying 'punch' is a style. All Gung Fu has Chin Na. I have played with 2 groups of Wing Chun guys ( Leung Ting's, William Cheung's groups) Hung Ga gung fu, and Chen Taijiquan and they all do Chin Na. Just like they all punch or all kick.

The way it was explained to me:

There are two "kinds" of chin na, white tiger, and black tiger.
white tiger is passive, holds, locks, etc... black tiger is the aggresive side, the rips, the breaks, etc...

one guy, who has multiple black belts in multiple jujitsu like arts, and aikido, etc... took all of the techniques and blended them into what he called "Blue Tiger Chin Na", which is a system he created, that is based solely on the chin na in all the other systems, a balance of the two.



that is how it was explained to me.


and we do not use ANY japanese names, so it is all english to me guys, this japanese lingo means nothing to me, heh

[NebS]

We use japanese lingo.

I just don't remember it because I'm a North American martial artist.

[CEB]

The way it was explained to me:

There are two "kinds" of chin na, white tiger, and black tiger.
white tiger is passive, holds, locks, etc... black tiger is the aggresive side, the rips, the breaks, etc...

one guy, who has multiple black belts in multiple jujitsu like arts, and aikido, etc... took all of the techniques and blended them into what he called "Blue Tiger Chin Na", which is a system he created, that is based solely on the chin na in all the other systems, a balance of the two.



that is how it was explained to me.
....

Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me. Chin na are the seizing and control techniques of Chinese Gung Fu. I think you have been had.

[Shonuff]

And once again CEB has t3h correct.

Someone watched way too many shitty king fu movies and read a few comic books before coming up with that nonsense.

[Tagg1080]

of the people who have studied both, which do you prefer, aikido, or jjj?

[AJ]

We use japanese lingo.

I just don't remember it because I'm a North American martial artist.

I'm now going to refer to a guillotine choke as a "Chancery" just to annoy people and sound more old-timey when I talk. That's what the choke was called back in the Catch era.

[Ari Bolden]

of the people who have studied both, which do you prefer, aikido, or jjj?


Do you like the ability to see or hear more?

Its one of those questions....it also depends on what style of JJJ you are talking about about. There are many styles that are very similar to Aikido (such as Daito Ryu which Aikido comes from) so its hard to pin that down to a favorite.

As with any art I have taken (or do), they all add something special to the whole.

[CEB]

For me teacher has always trumped style ..... with in reason.

[Otto]

of the people who have studied both, which do you prefer, aikido, or jjj?

Now don't go getting' all pissed at me and everything, you guys.

I love Martial Arts. (I should probably shut up right here) And I've found Aikido to be a helpful supplement to fighting knowledge/ability as a whole. And I've enjoyed it and made some good friends. And it sure is pretty. But comparing it to jits is like comparing a babe's fashionable hairdo to a thong with her skirt up around her shoulders.
Seems to me, that if one was studying a single art, it would take decades of training to use Aikido in an actual street fight. At least against a good street fighter, and at least if you expected to win. I know, I know, there's more to the arts than just fighting. But still.

I've never met an Aikido master that I thought could kick my ass. Not one. Only met 67,000 purple belts in jits that could do it without breaking a sweat.

Again, please refer to the first line of this post. :)

[Ari Bolden]

Otto is right. If we are to compare art vs art...well, we know how that went down (please refer to 1994 UFC and any GJJ challenges prior to that date).

Aikido has taught me some fantastic tai sabaki and general theories behind kazushi. It has also made me appreciate circular movement and some great wrist locks. Aikidoka are some of the nicest folks around too.

But lets be honest....it is a "do" system rather than a "jitsu" system (way vs fighting art). Aikido is a strange art with a strange 'range'. It isn't a striking art, not really a clinching art, and it really isn't a grappling art. It is aiki, a concept and range unto its own which presupposes that you are able to throw or move your enemy within the first contact. It has been my experience that seldom, if ever, does anything go right on the first encounter and grapplers (jiu jitsuka) really, REALLY can mess up your day.

[Adam]

For me Akido has the bomb digaty break falls and really cool multiple attacker defenses.

Our style is like a mix of Akido, Judo and BJJ, its this really cool martial art called Goshin Jujutsu. You no, that one that crushes the throat while ripping out ya eye's just after you got kicked in the balls. :D

[Shonuff]

I have found Aikido to be a total waste of time, bottom of the barrel for even a '-Do' art.

I thought my impression was just due to being in America, but even in Japan it is horrendous.

[AJ]

I have found Aikido to be a total waste of time, bottom of the barrel for even a '-Do' art.

I thought my impression was just due to being in America, but even in Japan it is horrendous.

I have this theory about Akido. I've read that white belts learn how to "take" the submissions.

What i mean by "Take" is that they are inundated with the notion that, "This crap is moving so fast that it will snap your shit. If you do not flip roll when he moves your hand you will break like a twig. Learn this now are you will be a gimp."

Yes, their shit can snap like a twig however the angle for that effectiveness is very specific and precise. Even being off by a few degrees on your angle will change a snap into a last minute yank twist to an off angle wrist lock. The tighter the submission gets, the more tension is built and it wants to explode in any direction... it's like when you ninja yank a kimura and the dude recoil yanks his arm straight into his own worst arm bar or escape....

So yeah.. in the end it's a bunch of guys who might be or might not be yanking limbs the right way and a punch of full on attacking full on resisting opponents who are scared as shit of getting their joints cracked... so they flip flip flip flip.

[Ari Bolden]

The ability to take ukemi (falling) in Aikido is VERY important. It is true that if you go full power in Aikido technique and you don't know how to fall correctly, you are either going to break something or get really hurt in the process. The tought part is pulling off the moves in question.

Ever hear of dirty boxing? I took my 10 years of aikido study and refined it (or made it more crude) to a point where it became more applicable to the real world.

I've always said that martial art techniques pulled off in the real world SELDOM look like they do in the dojo. But the desired effect is the same. If you know the mechanics behind the moves, can accept that shit happens and stuff sometimes 'looks sloppy, you can apply any technique to real life combat.

I started taking jiu jitsu because I wanted an art that was more realistic in its combat approach. But, I never lost the education Aikido taught me in regards to movement and body mechanics.

[Otto]

While Aikido may not be a combative art in the strictest sense of the term, it certainly has some wonderful parts. I taught Defensive Tactics in law enforcement for some time and guys that worked Aikido with me helped refine angles, body position and yielding to greater force for the things we did. Or tried to do – because not much ever works in the real world like it looks in the gym.
But everything helps.

[Tagg1080]

For the flipping comment:

Yes, white belts are taught to move with the technique, because we don't want accidents to happen. If I put you into a kotogosh(spelling?) for example, and I CRANK it, and you happen to twist the other way to try to get out of it, TRUST me, when I tell you that your entire world will become pain. BUT, if you know which direction to move in, then I can practice my technique, and not hurt you.

[NebS]

For the flipping comment:

Yes, white belts are taught to move with the technique, because we don't want accidents to happen. If I put you into a kotogosh(spelling?) for example, and I CRANK it, and you happen to twist the other way to try to get out of it, TRUST me, when I tell you that your entire world will become pain. BUT, if you know which direction to move in, then I can practice my technique, and not hurt you.

I think we understand the ability to move with the person doing the technique so we can protect ourselves..but what I think most people are getting at here is that the person you encounter in a real life senario will not move the way your buddy moves in the dojo (for the most part). :eek:

[Tagg1080]

Well...

yea...

that is true about everything in martial arts, we cannot do everything perfectly like it will be done on the street...



but the techniques do work, do you say arm bars don't work, cuz you have never actually done it 100% and broken anything?

of course not, you get it as far as you can, and then they give up.

with wrist locks, if you do not move, it will break it, the moving is a form of tapping i guess, kinda

[Oneiros]

kotogosh(spelling?)

Kote Gaeshi?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bGH9v6OYa4&feature=related

[Shonuff]

but the techniques do work, do you say arm bars don't work, cuz you have never actually done it 100% and broken anything?

No, but I can get someone who doesn't want me to do it to tap to an armbar. I have uke'd for many dan ranked Aikidoka, and with minimal resistance the entire system is reduced to a pile of useless.

Sorry to break it to you in such a point blank manner.

[AJ]

For the flipping comment:

Yes, white belts are taught to move with the technique, because we don't want accidents to happen. If I put you into a kotogosh(spelling?) for example, and I CRANK it, and you happen to twist the other way to try to get out of it, TRUST me, when I tell you that your entire world will become pain. BUT, if you know which direction to move in, then I can practice my technique, and not hurt you.

I'm not saying that the techniques do not work, but many times standing submissions have very narrow torque angles and small fulcrum points because the space is much more wide and dynamic. It's not like jiujitsu where they are smashed between your legs, gravity, and your clinch.

The only jiujitsu equivalent I can think of would be catching wild arm bars from flying fists out of the open guard. Definitely possible but not always the preferred option.

When someone is coming at you and randomly grabs you, you have to quickly and dynamically pick a move dependent upon the angle of their wrist in relation to their elbow. I fully believe Ari when he says the moves do work and I imagine in real life there is much more fishing around for the proper angle and fulcrum point.

My point about white belts who flip is that they are flipping regardless of whether or not the technique is proper. Hell, I've seen guys do it in jiujitsu where I hip throw someone and they practically jump on their own because they are so paranoid of being thrown by somebody else's velocity.

[CEB]

No, but I can get someone who doesn't want me to do it to tap to an armbar. I have uke'd for many dan ranked Aikidoka, and with minimal resistance the entire system is reduced to a pile of useless.

Sorry to break it to you in such a point blank manner.

About 25 years ago I took some Aikido lessons for about 3 months.

I remember my 2nd lesson. They were some technique against tsuki. The way they did tsuki look like a step through Karate punch. Hell, I knew how to do that. So I punch this brown belt guy and does nice sabaki and does the follow up techniques and I just stand there. I don’t go anywhere. Evidently according to the sensei it was my fault because in a real attack people commit and I didn’t commit enough. The guy I was work with weighed about a buck twenty. If I had hit him I would have broke him. But my stances were good and I was centered. But I punched elbow and wrsit were strong from knuckle push ups and makiwara training. Evidently in Aikido being committed means that you uncontrollably fall on your face anytime you attack. Hahaha

A lot of this stuff I had done before but done it differently. One class we were doing defense against tsuki but the attacker had a wooden knife. I did an old Jujutsu move that uses sankajo to redirect the knife and disembowel the attacker. The rest of the class that saw it was like “ ooooh!, that cool. Teacher was not happy. I was told, “We do not kill people in Aikido”. I said but he had a knife Sensei. I just was not Aikido material. Aikido may be OK if it wasn't for all the ex-hippie pacifists that are in the art. :)


:D Plus I have a lot of trouble making that stuff work without knocking the piss out of tori first.

[Adam]

I like the ukemi waza in Akido..Coming from a style thats very much like dirty Judo, the ukemi waza is very helpful as i can be thrown hundreds of times , so my uke can become better at this throwing , and vice versa .
Ive never done BJJ, do they have any ukemi in there?
This guys break falls are soooo light its not funny..


I Hope to be this good,, and for the record, i think Akido is a lil weak for my likings tho it has its purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMpBpM38TMg&feature=related

[Otto]

Hey Guys,
What's "dirty Judo"?

[Adam]

Hey Guys,
What's "dirty Judo"?

Bacially Judo with all the finishing (killing or subduing/incapacitating) techniques left in and more.
Goshin Jujitsu basically , very much like American Jujitsu..

LIKE THIS!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suXxYE3LFr0

[younwha]

Great video. I wished we saw more throws and sweeps like that in BJJ.

[Otto]

That was sweet!
But, please tell me more about "Dirty Judo". I've only heard the term on this forum, and was immediately fascinated.
What's the difference between "dirty judo" and Judo? Is it a term that is frowned upon by traditional Judo? (are there no finishing techniques, such as what was shown on that video, in traditional Judo?) Is it something that was named as "dirty Judo" here, in North America? Is it a slang term not recognized by Judo players in Japan? Is it regular Judo with some "nasties" thrown in? If so, what kind of nasties?
I just want to get my mind around this. I'm clueless.
Thanks for the help.

[Tagg1080]

I will make a video saturday in class, showing some of our more street aplicable stuff, how is that? we do JJJ, and are partner school does aikido, i will do some of both.

one thing that REALLY makes cage fighting stand out and makes it VERY different from self defense, is the ranges. in a defense situation, you are going to be in corto, or medio, rarely will you be sparring at largo, there is just to much room. so at that close range, these things are quite easy to do, lol


you guys can rip my video apart all you want, i do not claim to be a master, but i am pretty sure i can show a couple useful things!

will get it done for saturday afternoon, any requests? i will prob do a kotogaeshi? or whatever it is, different from how ari does it in the video, we post the elbow, and what we are told is the jjj version, the one he does in the video, and maybe an s lock? oooh, and a kewl push defense, or 2!

[Otto]

Kyle,
I've not a clue. What is "corto", "medio" and "largo"?
And what is an "s lock" and a "kewl push"?

Sometimes it's tough being out of the loop and clueless!

[Tagg1080]

Kyle,
I've not a clue. What is "corto", "medio" and "largo"?
And what is an "s lock" and a "kewl push"?

Sometimes it's tough being out of the loop and clueless!

corto, medio, largo, the 3 ranges of filipino martial arts, corto is elbowing range, medio is punching/kicking range, and largo is outside of that, where legs can touch, but you can't hit their body.

s lock, or z lock maybe? it is a type of wrist lock, VERY painful

kewl == cool

i ment a "cool" push defense, =)

[Adam]

That was sweet!
But, please tell me more about "Dirty Judo". I've only heard the term on this forum, and was immediately fascinated.
What's the difference between "dirty judo" and Judo? Is it a term that is frowned upon by traditional Judo? (are there no finishing techniques, such as what was shown on that video, in traditional Judo?) Is it something that was named as "dirty Judo" here, in North America? Is it a slang term not recognized by Judo players in Japan? Is it regular Judo with some "nasties" thrown in? If so, what kind of nasties?
I just want to get my mind around this. I'm clueless.
Thanks for the help.
Maybe this might help explain it..

It come's from Kano Ryu Jujitsu with is the Jujitsu Jigoro Kano had before he created Judo.Judo was created as a sport, so to stop people getting hurt he took out the most of the more deadly techniques.

Around world war 2 the Dutch where training Judo , but you could also get graded in Jujitsu if u stayed back after judo class.

They would teach the add on's to the Judo throws and you could get graded in both Judo and Jujitsu,hence the name "dirty Judo".

Our style is very much like this ,with minor variations to the throws of Judo, but much much more Atemi(striking)and joint manipulation.
Much much more real life self defense/combat orientated than Judo .

[Acenes]

... in a defense situation, you are going to be in corto, or medio, rarely will you be sparring at largo, there is just to much room. so at that close range, these things are quite easy to do, lol

WTF ... the ranges are exactly the same. :eek: :rolleyes: :p I don't see a difference here.

....
You can easily apply a "dojo-technique" to a self defense sitation(which ones you use depend entirely on you), BUT if you don't know how to adapt to their reaction to it(which will differ for every person you apply it to) then you are almost as f*%ked as you were before you applied the technique to them in the first place.

[CEB]

That was sweet!
But, please tell me more about "Dirty Judo". I've only heard the term on this forum, and was immediately fascinated.
What's the difference between "dirty judo" and Judo? Is it a term that is frowned upon by traditional Judo? (are there no finishing techniques, such as what was shown on that video, in traditional Judo?) Is it something that was named as "dirty Judo" here, in North America? Is it a slang term not recognized by Judo players in Japan? Is it regular Judo with some "nasties" thrown in? If so, what kind of nasties?
I just want to get my mind around this. I'm clueless.
Thanks for the help.

I don't know if they got the term "Dirty Judo" from me or if other people use it also. I thought I had coined the term. Here is what it means to me.

To me "Dirty Judo" is what most people on the internet call "Japanese Jujutsu". I think of it as Jujutsu whose lineage comes off Judo. Most Jujutsu dojo I find in the the US have some Judo as a base.

The first thing I ask someone who says they do "Japanese Jujutsu" is what is their Ryuha. It is usuallly something like...oh my teacher took a little of this and a little of that and put them together and made this or that.

To me it is only Japanese Jujutsu if there is actually a Japanese Honbu.... You know, Jujutsu that is actually practiced by Japanese people. These days that is a rare thing find. Nothing necessarily wrong with an ecceltic made up Jujutsu system. I have dan paper in one. Mine was an off shoot of Danzan Ryu. Danzan Ryu IMO isn't Japanese either. It was created in Hawaii. But that is just me.

[Shonuff]

To me it is only Japanese Jujutsu if there is actually a Japanese Honbu.... You know Jujutsu that is actually practiced by Japanese people.

Agreed. On several levels.