JJJ in grappling matches?

[sodaghost]

Lately when starting a grappling match I've been going for a lot of wristlocks. I train JJJ and 10thP, and in our grappling sessions we usually just start from our knees (not worrying about takedowns etc). In the first few seconds of the match we'll sort of bat at each other, search around for different holds or ways to engage, pull guard or try for side control or whatever. And recently, more to amuse myself than in a serious attempt at submission, I've been trying for kotegaeshi or nikkajo when starting a match. I've managed to get them once or twice, but nothing ever comes of it.

Is this weird? Are they cheap shots? Am I wasting my time? On the flip side, are there any tricks to doing them better? :D

[Tallsilkyslim]

Lately when starting a grappling match I've been going for a lot of wristlocks. I train JJJ and 10thP, and in our grappling sessions we usually just start from our knees (not worrying about takedowns etc). In the first few seconds of the match we'll sort of bat at each other, search around for different holds or ways to engage, pull guard or try for side control or whatever. And recently, more to amuse myself than in a serious attempt at submission, I've been trying for kotegaeshi or nikkajo when starting a match. I've managed to get them once or twice, but nothing ever comes of it.

Is this weird? Are they cheap shots? Am I wasting my time? On the flip side, are there any tricks to doing them better? :D

If memory serves me right, Ari demonstrated an exclusive technique called "The Praying Mantis". I do believe that this was a wrist lock from inside someones guard.

I personally wasn't ever able to develop the finer nuances of the technique. However, it's application was certainly a welcomed variation of wrist locking in self defense.

[younwha]

Seeings we're a Korean art with a pretty big impact from Hapkido a lot of us do wrist locks (I'm the exception). They work really well to distract someone into a sub. Usually the wrist lock itself doesn't make someone tap.

[sodaghost]

They work really well to distract someone into a sub. Usually the wrist lock itself doesn't make someone tap.

Can you give me an example?

[Otto]

I tried for years trying to catch a wrist lock while grappling. Not as a plan of attack, but I always tried if I thought I had the opportunity. Never once did it work for me.
I got caught in one once, by mistake, (he wasn't going for one but my wrist got wrapped in gei) but I suck grappling so that doesn't count for much.

[Ari Bolden]

There is a time and place for everything. I once saw a match where Jacare snapped a guys wrist with an old JJJ hold (basically, he pinned the other guys wrist to his chest and pulled in the elbow).

JJJ wrist locks tend not to work in grappling matches because they require more fine motor skill than the gross motor skill most grappling matches have. How on earth do you get wrist locks then? Atemi (strikes).

In almost all the real world situations where I have pulled off a "real and strong' wrist lock was set up with a strike or a distraction. The intent with wrist locks has to be close to 100% and you have to be willing to hurt in order to get your desired results. I've got a few wrist locks while rolling over the years but nothing against a seasoned player.

Having said that, I have done many wrist locks in my job over the last dozen plus years and I can tell you that the focus ans intent were entirely different.

I believe that there is a huge difference between sport jiu jitsu and combat jujutsu and you better know which move is used in which medium. I don't much care for the debate on this topic (does JJJ work in the real world) because experience tells me it does, without a shadow of a doubt. As my bouncing mentor is found of saying "ask the experienced, not the learned."

[Otto]

There is a time and place for everything. I once saw a match where Jacare snapped a guys wrist with an old JJJ hold (basically, he pinned the other guys wrist to his chest and pulled in the elbow).

JJJ wrist locks tend not to work in grappling matches because they require more fine motor skill than the gross motor skill most grappling matches have. How on earth do you get wrist locks then? Atemi (strikes).

In almost all the real world situations where I have pulled off a "real and strong' wrist lock was set up with a strike or a distraction. The intent with wrist locks has to be close to 100% and you have to be willing to hurt in order to get your desired results. I've got a few wrist locks while rolling over the years but nothing against a seasoned player.

Having said that, I have done many wrist locks in my job over the last dozen plus years and I can tell you that the focus ans intent were entirely different.

I believe that there is a huge difference between sport jiu jitsu and combat jujutsu and you better know which move is used in which medium. I don't much care for the debate on this topic (does JJJ work in the real world) because experience tells me it does, without a shadow of a doubt. As my bouncing mentor is found of saying "ask the experienced, not the learned."

Oh, hell yes, brother. No question about that. I've put more dickwads in locks than I can remember. Some after strikes, sweeps, jams, headbutts, what-have-you. But I just couldn't ever get one while grappling.
Maybe someday who knows?

[Tallsilkyslim]

Oh, hell yes, brother. No question about that. I've put more dickwads in locks than I can remember. Some after strikes, sweeps, jams, headbutts, what-have-you. But I just couldn't ever get one while grappling.
Maybe someday who knows?

I think part of the lack of success of wrist locks in live rolls is the mind set whilst rolling. I never stop to think about actually doing them. I am usually too busy thinking about their elbow or neck. I bet somewhere is a dude that hits a lot of wrist locks in live rolling just because he is thinking about it more.

Food for thought.

[Dr Sick]

I definitely believe that wrist locks are a legitimate and important tool for Self Defense, BJJ, Submission Grappling and possibly MMA (hand wrapping may negate or impede the utility of a wristlock here).

But if you don't remember, Royce Gracie subbed Akebono with a wrist lock.

I use them as takedowns on occasion. Sensei Paulson said about two years ago, that Wrist locking is the new leg locking. Back in his day he'd get booed off the mat for using leg locks in BJJ tournaments. Now they are commonplace and acceptable. Wrist locks will probably face the same progression.

There is a great review at http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=4544 I've never seen the DVD but it's interesting to me. When I have a surplus of capital, it is on my wish list.

I learned a couple of uses for them from one of my BJJ Coaches Mike Diaz. He uses them for posture breaking and ever since he taught me I've used them quite extensively. You can check out a few examples in my posture breaking series on youtube. I'm too lazy to look up the address right now but a couple of them are on there.

Ari, you'll be learning a few from the official Pedro Sauer Self Defenses for BJJ. The one you mentioned about pinning the palm to the chest and pulling on the elbow is on in the official curriculum and is actually where Mike Diaz learned to incorporate them into his live rolling.

He's also tapped me out with them as counters to leg locks. Oh, and one of my students actually made a guy scream with one during a Submission Grappling tournament. I'll put it up if I can find it. But it was one of the ones demonstrated on the youtube clip.

So in short, I think they are important and worth looking into.

[younwha]

Can you give me an example?

Well like I said it's not something I really do, but I see it happen to me once in a while. Say someone is in your guard, you pull them down, and over hook (proper term idk?) one of the arms. They usually try to get their arm free by bringing it in bent, from there you get a chicken wing wrist lock, to escape the wrist lock they can no longer go inside so they just straighten their arm to the outside... arm bar.

Another thing we do a little different than popular BJJ when it comes to wrist locks is we use it as a second submissions. You get the armbar on you might as well get a wrist lock at the same time. It's usually not horribly painful (in training because it's not full blown), but it's enough to mess with the persons mind and make them think they can't escape.

[RitsuRei]

i use them all the time but its probably the akido that was burned into my head, sometimes i get a submission sometimes it just opens up another position.