Mat ettiquette (rolling with higher belts)

[Tallsilkyslim]

I have a question. Is it considered rude or out of line to ask a higher belt than you in BJJ to roll? Is it better to wait for them to ask you if you are the lower rank?

Thanks

[jakem]

the way you stated it is the way i learned.(am learning):)

[Matt]

Personally, the main way to improve is to roll with people higher ranked then you and if you don't ask then they will probably roll with some one else.

I always ask the biggest and best if they want to roll, I'd except the same from any one else.

[Shonuff]

Depends on the gym.

At my home gym I ask whoever is available regardless of rank. When visiting another gym I wait for them to ask until I have developed a relationship with them.

[Otto]

Depends on the gym.

At my home gym I ask whoever is available regardless of rank. When visiting another gym I wait for them to ask until I have developed a relationship with them.

Now, here is a man who knows gyms.

[Tallsilkyslim]

I brought this up because Dan and I had an interesting conversation at lunch. I witnessed a white belt get smashed by a black belt, in a way I thought was a little uncalled for. He brought up that it is generally considered rude for a lower belt to ask a higher belt to roll, thus the smashing was deserved.

At my school, my instructor is a brown belt, there are a handful of blue belts, and about 25 white belts. With not a lot of time around a ton of higher belts, I just wasn't sure how this worked at other schools.

[Tagg1080]

At our kenpo school we try to pair black/whites, as it helps the whites out more! (and the blacks actually learn more from the whites than you would think...) This is drilling, when it comes to sparring, it is whoever wants to fight whoever, think "dog brothers" style of sparring partner finding.

[Tallsilkyslim]

At our kenpo school we try to pair black/whites, as it helps the whites out more! (and the blacks actually learn more from the whites than you would think...) This is drilling, when it comes to sparring, it is whoever wants to fight whoever, think "dog brothers" style of sparring partner finding.

Kyle:

The point is not who you get paired up with. I was referring more to actually asking a black belt to roll during open mats being an insult.......

[Tagg1080]

Kyle:

The point is not who you get paired up with. I was referring more to actually asking a black belt to roll during open mats being an insult.......

Aaaaahh, ok, sorrys, misunderstood, :D :D

I don't see why it would be insulting, personally, and the BJJ gym I go to, I have never seen anything like that. I ask higher belts to roll all the time! No blacks there though, but the blues and purple don't care.

[SavageKitsune]

I read that somewhere and was a little concerned about it. Being new and clueless, I realize that anyone who agrees to roll with me at this point is basically performing an act of charity.... so I try to not abuse it by hogging too much of anyone's precious mat time. I always make sure to thank them, especially if they made an effort to explain techniques or answer questions.

But I need to roll if I'm going to learn anything, and since everyone is senior to me right now, if they don't ask, I'm going to have to go ahead and ask!

I can see it being an insult if you went into it with an attitude of trying to prove something... as if you were challenging the more senior person.

[DePratt]

Asking a black belt might be considered disrespectful.

but i would ask a purple or lower

[michaelwbray]

At our gym it isn't considered rude to ask a higher rank to roll with you. Higher ranks get right of way on the mat. If you're wrestling and you end up near someone else, whoever is the lowest rank has to move.

It would also be considered rude if a higher rank asks to roll with you and you turn them down (unless you are injured).

[younwha]

I think it's pretty retarded to be honest with you. Everyone starts off as a white belt, and there's only one way to get better, train. I'm obviously no high rank in BJJ, however I am one of the better people at sparring in our association (for my rank)... low ranks ask to spar with me all the time. Why? Because afterwards I can tell them what they did wrong and what they need to work on. I can give them openings and see if they take it. It's the job of the high rank to build up the lower ranks. You can't build them up by pissing them away.

Just my .02

[Matt]

I think it's pretty retarded to be honest with you. Everyone starts off as a white belt, and there's only one way to get better, train. I'm obviously no high rank in BJJ, however I am one of the better people at sparring in our association (for my rank)... low ranks ask to spar with me all the time. Why? Because afterwards I can tell them what they did wrong and what they need to work on. I can give them openings and see if they take it. It's the job of the high rank to build up the lower ranks. You can't build them up by pissing them away.

Just my .02

x2 this is a great attitude that all bjj's need to take up apon, if some one gets offended because they have been asked to roll with a lower rank then there not worth the time imo.

[Turf]

It is rude to ask a higher belt to roll with you. I guess it isn't as much rude as you just don't do it because you don't do it. I'm thinking rude like farting at your in-laws dinner table. This isn't that kind of rude. Asking a higher belt to roll is more like not tucking your shirt in on the golf course. No one is gonna get real pissed, but you just follow the rules.
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[Tone]

Some ppl need to get over themselves. I think as a black belt, you have a responsability to represent your school in a non egotisitical manner, as you may teach or be called upon to teach. Destroying a white belt for wanting to learn more because he "asked" you to roll, proves nothing and you might break the trust that white belt might have in you.

[zaxonortesus]

We have a ton of whites, 4 or 5 blues on any given night, and one black or two. Our coach (one of the blacks) will usually call out who people are rolling with, but by the end of our full on rolling night, it breaks down and we just go to whoever is open. Blacks and blues asking whites and visa versa, though nobody usually asks our coach, he calls out who he wants to work with, but he is the only one like that.

[AJ]

I just hate rules of etiquette that people fail to tell you about. My old gym had rules like this (from what I could presume) but in my opinion if someone is too much of a social coward to explain this stuff to you then screw em.

If you are standing on the mat waiting to roll and so am I, then I'm hogging up and stealing time from the best person I can and I'm going to ask 50 annoying questions to get better. If I was worried about offendings someone's mystery rules then I would have never entered the gym in the first place.

Explain it or post it on the wall otherwise I don't care. :)

[Martin]

If a black belt gets offended by a lower belt challenging him to a roll then i would say that that black belt needs to go and have a lok at his ego.

[Tone]

At my old school, we rotated partners when we rolled. It was was so random who you got matched with, you could have rolled with a white belt, blue belt, purple belt and a black belt etc in one class. I never was made to feel like I had to walk on egg shells around the black belts and couldn't ask to roll with them. The black belts were usually very humble ppl, who were as eager to teach as I was to learn so it was never a problem.

[zaxonortesus]

What about drilling? If you are drilling with someone who is a higher belt do you let them practice first? I don't know if it is proper ettiquette or not, but I usually let them as a show of respect. I think my decade in the military has made me very cognesent of rank and showing it respect.

[Otto]

What about drilling? If you are drilling with someone who is a higher belt do you let them practice first? I don't know if it is proper ettiquette or not, but I usually let them as a show of respect. I think my decade in the military has made me very cognesent of rank and showing it respect.

I think that's a great attitude. And I think respect works both ways. Underbelts should have respect for the Black Belts, and Black Belts should have equal respect for the underbelts.
That's why it's called respect.

But, rank should have certain privileges. The high ranks are the ones that are responsible for teaching, helping, guiding and encouraging the underbelts. As such, they oughta' get something, and if all that something is is the respect of first mat time, or to pick who they free roll with, or where their locker is, so be it.

That being said, the first privilege a higher rank has - is the privilege to work his fricken ass off, let's make no mistake about that.

In my opinion, whatever the rules, etiquette and protocol of your particular dojo happen to be, that's what you go by. And if another dojo does things different, that's okay too.

[Dannicus]

I brought this up because Dan and I had an interesting conversation at lunch. I witnessed a white belt get smashed by a black belt, in a way I thought was a little uncalled for. He brought up that it is generally considered rude for a lower belt to ask a higher belt to roll, thus the smashing was deserved.


Just for the record, I don't think the white belt necessarily deserved what happened Preston, I was just coming up with possible reasoning for it given the conversation.

[Shonuff]

If a black belt gets offended by a lower belt challenging him to a roll then i would say that that black belt needs to go and have a lok at his ego.

You are only seeing one side to the coin here...

Higher belts are there to train just as much as you are. Do you think they get much out of rolling with white belts? Of course not...

It isn't ego at all imo.

[Dannicus]

Look at it like this, black belts, higher belts, have their own things to work on. They've put in a huge investment into their training, and as black belts, they may have other responsibilities to the school that you as a lower belt, do not have.

I would say it's a case by case basis, if you have gotten to know them, it may not be a big deal. When in doubt, always ask your instructor what their policy is. It's always the best way to go with any question. It is their school after all.

[zaxonortesus]

Look at it like this, black belts, higher belts, have their own things to work on. They've put in a huge investment into their training, and as black belts, they may have other responsibilities to the school that you as a lower belt, do not have.

I would say it's a case by case basis, if you have gotten to know them, it may not be a big deal. When in doubt, always ask your instructor what their policy is. It's always the best way to go with any question. It is their school after all.

QFT. The only dumb question is the one left unasked.

[AJ]

You are only seeing one side to the coin here...

Higher belts are there to train just as much as you are. Do you think they get much out of rolling with white belts? Of course not...

It isn't ego at all imo.

They learn how to better teach. The patience to explain your technique and throttle yourself down to a lower level isn't something that people just know. It also provides them an opportunity to workshop advanced techniques on the new guys.

I'm sure the black belt has his own things to train but that's his problem. For me to presume that I am too low of a rank to approach him is a bad attempt at mind reading.

I agree with you though it isn't ego. They just want to get better faster by going against the better people in the gym.. which is what all of us are trying to do.

[Matt]

What about drilling? If you are drilling with someone who is a higher belt do you let them practice first? I don't know if it is proper ettiquette or not, but I usually let them as a show of respect. I think my decade in the military has made me very cognesent of rank and showing it respect.

In my gym the higher belts always ask who wants to go first.. even the lower belts do. Normally though, the lower belts do tend to let the others go first.. I dont think its more of a respect thing..

But more of a 'wtf are we doing, im not sure, i'll let him do it first and learn from that' :)

[SavageKitsune]

What about drilling? If you are drilling with someone who is a higher belt do you let them practice first? I don't know if it is proper ettiquette or not, but I usually let them as a show of respect.

I let whomever I'm working with practice first, regardless of rank. I don't want to burn any time futzing about who is going to go first; mat time's a-wastin', I want to get to work immediately so we can both get in as many reps as possible- so I just say, "You can go first!" and get into position and get going.

It usually helps me too, to understand the technique better being on the recieving end before trying it myself.

[zaxonortesus]

I let whomever I'm working with practice first, regardless of rank. I don't want to burn any time futzing about who is going to go first; mat time's a-wastin', I want to get to work immediately so we can both get in as many reps as possible- so I just say, "You can go first!" and get into position and get going.

It usually helps me too, to understand the technique better being on the recieving end before trying it myself.

I do that a lot too, especially in stand up. I will always tell the other person to throw first. The only person to ever say "no, you go first." was actually one of the BJJ blue belts (and I mean this humbly and respectfully) that I am better than on the feet. She was asking me pointers and things the whole time too, a real role reversal.

[Tallsilkyslim]

Just for the record, I don't think the white belt necessarily deserved what happened Preston, I was just coming up with possible reasoning for it given the conversation.

I wasn't trying to call you out either Dan.:) It was actually a good point that hadn't crossed my mind. I thought it would make an interesting topic.

[Showtime]

Comming from a TMA background, it was always said to be disrespectfull to ask a higher rank to spar. The thought being you thought you were as good as they are. When I was teaching, it mattered more to me the intent behind them asking. If your a lower rank asking me to spar cause you wanna see how good I am, I'm gonna trash you hard and fast. If your asking me to spar because you want to get better and have a real desire to learn, I'll help you make that happen.

[Acenes]

Comming from a TMA background, it was always said to be disrespectfull to ask a higher rank to spar. The thought being you thought you were as good as they are. When I was teaching, it mattered more to me the intent behind them asking. If your a lower rank asking me to spar cause you wanna see how good I am, I'm gonna trash you hard and fast. If your asking me to spar because you want to get better and have a real desire to learn, I'll help you make that happen.

I 100% agree.

I never (99% of all times), ask anyone to roll with me. ... People usually just pick on me because I am so small and cuddly looking anyways.

[forrestang]

In my school, we get paired up so often that it's not a big deal. The only one who doesn't roll with everyone is the instructor, but I think that's cause she runs our school and also trains at another school.....so sometimes she's probably worn out.

But I can see both sides.

I can see how a higher rank might not 'always' want to train with a new guy, especially if they're active in competitions. But I do think it's their responsibility sometimes.

I also think that lower ranks will gain more useful technique rolling with higher ranks who know to leave openings, explain things the new guy does wrong, and generally to guide the newer guy into useful sparring.

Also, from a safety standpoint, higher ranks with new people is always better. There is nothing more dangerous than rolling with a new guy. Or maybe even worse, a good wrestler that is just learning about submissions.

I was rolling with a new white belt a few weeks ago, and damn this guy was out of control, even busted my lip :)

I'm sure we all know, when we first started we may have lacked control that you eventually get, and it's that control that makes it safer when rolling with newer guys, and usually being able to bring them under control.

[AJ]

There is nothing more dangerous than rolling with a new guy. Or maybe even worse, a good wrestler that is just learning about submissions.

Funny you mention that. That's exactly what happened last night. I figured I was in for it when he was going hard on the pummel drill doing the whole shoulder ram thing.

When we rolled, he had poor control on his arm triangle and proceeded to crank the hell out of my face. I just had to keep my hips rotating to prevent from getting injured but getting your face smooshed still sucks.

[SavageKitsune]

The worst injury I've gotten so far in BJJ class was working with a brand new white belt "It's my first day!" She had some weight and height on me- not too much- but she had seven years of wrestling experience! :eek: It was only my second week, and I was being too much of a stubborn macho
dumbass to ask her to take it a little easier. It actually didn't seem *that* bad at the time, but later that night I could barely remove my own socks. It took about four weeks for me to heal up. Learned my lesson, though.... I can eat a lot of pain, and generally recover quickly from most injuries, but I do *NOT* want to wind up impaired enough that it's going to interfere with my training for that length of time. So now I'm more careful to pay attention, swallow my pride and ask people to ease up a bit if necessary.

My instructor most often goes out of his way to pair me up with a blue belt- I think he's trying to keep me from getting injured because I'm new and much smaller than everyone else.