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Quatoof
10-29-2009, 11:34 AM
Since Keith mentioned it in his speech and there has been some discussion on board recently thoguht I would lay out some info

The 50/50 Controversy
Wednesday, September 16th, 2009 @ 2:59 am
The 50/50 Controversy
by Ryan Hall

As many of you are aware, 50/50 guard has come under fire recently from many in the Jiu-Jitsu community, in large part for its use in the Pan and Mundial tournaments as an attempted strategy to dethrone 4-time consecutive featherweight champion Rubens “Cobrinha” Charles. It has been hotly discussed and has as many detractors as it does proponents. Much of the discussion thus far has focused on whether it is “unfair” or simply a “stalling position” that should be banned.
In my mind, the 50/50 is no different than Roleta’s inverted guard or Gordo’s half guard. Both men revolutionized the positions associated with them not through closed-mindedness but rather through analysis, practice, and re-analysis that resulted in innovation. I believe that we are beginning to see this as many instructors and fighters have been releasing technique videos billed as “solutions” to the 50/50 guard. In everyone’s haste to find a way to do away with what they consider to be a problematic position, though, I believe that many are putting the cart before the horse.
Like any other legitimate position (mount, half guard, closed guard, x-guard, et al), there is no “magic bullet” that will defeat the 50/50. As one can notice from observing the back and forth between the Alliance and Atos teams, as soon as you develop one counter and use it a couple times, your training partners or opponents will develop a counter to your movement. The cycle is endless because all single moves or techniques are inherently vulnerable to a specific counter technique.
What allows Roger Gracie to be so dominant, almost never losing a position even against the most elite of competition? Is it a specific move that he knows which all others seemingly do not? I could be wrong, but I do not believe this to be the case. Instead, I think we can all agree that the true skill of Jiu-Jitsu is not in one move or series of moves, but rather in movement itself, the ability to understand balance, timing, base, and other fundamental skills that allow a fighter to protect him or herself while putting their opponent in danger.
But what happens when even the best are at times stymied by a new or unique position? Should our ire fall on the position or rather on ourselves for being temporarily unable to manage it? Some would call the 50/50 a gimmick, but I would contend that it is a testament to its validity that even the world’s greatest and most dominant lightweight BJJ player has experienced some difficulties in navigating it.
To understand the best way to proceed in furthering our knowledge of the 50/50, we need only to look at the not-too-distant past. There was a time not long ago when the half guard was considered largely a defensive position. Today, though, we have Celsinho Vinicius, Lucas Leite, and others showing it to be far more. Next there was the spider guard, a clear stalling grip that made for an unpassable situation. But what about Rominho Barral’s or Michel Langhi’s aggressive and innovative use of it as a highly dangerous attacking position or Cobrinha’s or Roger Gracie’s systematic destruction of the open guards they face? The change in both the fighters’ and spectators’ perspectives on these positions did not happen over night, of course. Evolution happens everyday in athletics, particularly in a sport as young as modern competitive Jiu-Jitsu. Monumental change, though, is measured in years, not weeks or months.
The 50/50 presents a unique challenge to grapplers everywhere because the best means of navigating it would be considered unconventional at the very least when compared to standard guard passing techniques. Pressure fails to crack it and movement is limited. How then does one deal with it? I would contend that, like passing the half guard of an elite opponent, there is no magic move. Only an intimate understanding of the mechanics of the position will allow an athlete to be truly able to utilize the 50/50 effectively in both defensive and offensive capacities, as well as prevent others from stalling the fight should they attempt to. This is particularly true in a gi-less scenario where potentially injurious leg attacks are a constant danger and solid grips are hard to come by.
I have been able to utilize the 50/50 with a great deal of success for a number of years in competitions ranging from Grapplers Quest and NAGA to the ADCC Trials and ADCC itself. A deep understanding of it has allowed me to compete successfully at the elite level without the gi early on in my career in spite of giving up a considerable amount of experience and sometimes overall skill to my opponents. Also, I feel that the perspective gained from competing with such high level opposition in the formative stages of my competitive career has had a massive impact on my development both as a competitor and instructor, and that it is in large part what has allowed me to improve at a fairly rapid rate thus far. I believe that this perspective makes me uniquely qualified to help others learn about the full benefits drawbacks of the 50/50, particularly from a gi-less perspective. Additionally, I feel that I am now at a place as an instructor where I am able to articulate the details that matter most and flesh out the entire position and accompanying strategies rather than simply offer a series of moves.
Some of the world’s best black belts such as Rubens “Cobrinha” Charles, Rafael Mendes, Bruno Frazatto, and Guillherme Mendes have made considerable use of the 50/50 in elite-level gi competition, so I’ll leave it to them to cover the fine points of the position in the kimono. Without the gi, though, I can comfortably say that I have had as much or more experience and success in submission grappling with the 50/50 than anyone I am aware of. As I continue to compete in Jiu-Jitsu, submission grappling, and mixed martial arts, I plan to make the best use I am able of this dynamic and intricate position whenever it presents itself. I truly believe in the 50/50 and I hope that the DVD series that I have just released with World Martial Arts (www.groundfighter.com) will, at the least, put a shadow of doubt in the minds of the 50/50 detractors and with any kind of luck, help to spread the position to many other BJJ players, facilitating its development and growth as yet another face of the beautiful gem that is Jiu-Jitsu.
Thank You,
Ryan Hall
Fifty/50 BJJ

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Mikey Triangles
10-29-2009, 12:18 PM
Great post.

50/50 is a great position and it's only "contraversial" because all the old-school guys want to throw a temper-tantrum everytime something new that they don't know how to deal with comes out. The same thing happened with the "Stalling positions" known as Spider-guard and even Half-guard, and both are now widely accepted as effective positions.


I started playing 50/50 seriously after I saw Ryan use it to frustrate Cobrinha a couple years back. Cobrinha was 100x's the BJJ player Ryan was (at least at that time) and yet Ryan was still able to clearly frustrate him and even get close to locking in a submission. this combined with the many prior 50/50 heel-hook submissions Ryan racked up in competition is what made me realized that this position was something I needed to get ahead of the curb on and start learning. I started by watching and learning from all the competition matches I could find in which it was utilized and just playing around with the position. I also picked Ryan's brain whenever I saw him at events, etc.

then the DVD came out a couple months back, and I realized I was missing some important details in my 50/50 game as well as doing several things inefficiently. Anyone interested in learning something about 50/50 whether to become an expert player, or just learn how to defend against it and recognize the position should pick up the new set Hall put out. You won't be disappointed. Get it off WMA's ebay store for like half the price of their website though :/

Ari Bolden
10-29-2009, 02:43 PM
So, Ryan Hall is getting shit from the 'establishment' and he isn't a 10th Planet guy? So, is this then an issue of moving forward vs tradition?

I'll be honest, I simply don't approach jiu jitsu in this manner. I never think, that just sucks and has nothing to offer. Even if I never use the position or it just doesn't fit my game, isn't it worth something to someone?

Rock on Ryan Hall...rock on!

rocknroll
10-29-2009, 04:16 PM
its basics vs fancy moves ;)

Ari Bolden
10-29-2009, 04:20 PM
its basics vs fancy moves ;)


I am not sure about that. I believe that if you rep the moves enough, they become BASIC to you as a fighter. People who are versed in Rubber Guard, Twister Side, 50/50, de la riva or any other move that seem tough, just require time to master.

That's just me tho

rocknroll
10-29-2009, 04:25 PM
I am not sure about that. I believe that if you rep the moves enough, they become BASIC to you as a fighter. People who are versed in Rubber Guard, Twister Side, 50/50, de la riva or any other move that seem tough, just require time to master.

That's just me tho

yes, to you, the fancy moves user ;)

but i think you know what i meant with basics.. (BJJ/GJJ basics)
too tired to find arguments now, will write something tomorrow..

Ari Bolden
10-29-2009, 04:28 PM
yes, to you, the fancy moves user ;)

but i think you know what i meant with basics.. (BJJ/GJJ basics)
too tired to find arguments now, will write something tomorrow..

no arguments on my end ;-)

MatzeOne
10-29-2009, 04:41 PM
While coaching one of my students on Hugging Day III, he executed the Imanari Roll (which is by the way on the 50/50 instructional disc 2) and the coach of the other team told his student to be careful, because of the "fancy moves" we use in tournaments. I told him as well, that's a solid basic technique.

Otto
10-29-2009, 06:27 PM
Tell you what, fellas, the establishment always has something to say to any innovator. Tough for the establishement.

If it works, use it, if it don't – don't. We are Martial Artists. Artists create. We do not always paint by the numbers and sometimes we even go outside the lines when we color. Just because someone came before you don't let them tell what you can and cannot create.

If it works, you go.

Shonuff
10-29-2009, 06:41 PM
I don't think Ryan has gotten any flak over the 50/50 position... the primary argument against it is in the gi at the highest levels of competition.

The furor over it comes from the Frazzato v Cobrinha matches where it is obvious that Frazzato wanted to use it to stall out the match and rack up advantages with no real ability to sweep, submit or even advance his position.

Personally I think the position is fine and just like any other stalling should be called, but it is *really* easy to make it look like you are being active with this position when you are in fact running out the clock.

Ari Bolden
10-29-2009, 08:40 PM
Hmmmmm...running out the clock.....just gave me an idea for a post.

Otto
10-29-2009, 08:54 PM
I don't think Ryan has gotten any flak over the 50/50 position... the primary argument against it is in the gi at the highest levels of competition.

The furor over it comes from the Frazzato v Cobrinha matches where it is obvious that Frazzato wanted to use it to stall out the match and rack up advantages with no real ability to sweep, submit or even advance his position.

Personally I think the position is fine and just like any other stalling should be called, but it is *really* easy to make it look like you are being active with this position when you are in fact running out the clock.

Having only competed in one Jiu-jitsu competition, I ask out of a desire to know......

In striking arts, if you have absolutely smoked your opponent for most of the fight and you just kill time in the last round because your opponent has no chance of beating you unless he knocks you out - that's pretty much understood and accepted by everyone, including the fighters.

Is it different in Jiu-jitsu competition? I don't mean "is it done", I mean is it accepted by the fighters as "yeah, he beat him" type of thing, or is it more, "the bastard was stalling to protect his ass for the win" kind of thing?

Ari Bolden
10-29-2009, 09:16 PM
this thread inspired this thread
http://www.brazilianjiujitsugear.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7700

Woolfpack01
10-30-2009, 12:42 AM
The two largest complaints I've heard regarding the 50/50 guard is;

1) Used as a stalling tactic. But, as time has gone on people are coming up with really cool transitions and submissions from this position. Unfortunately, a good amount of the submissions lead to the second issue.

2) People do not like that you cannot rake the knee with your outside leg but are allowed to do 50/50. They feel if one is illegal than the other should be as well since both ways offer the possibility of blowing a knee out if pressure is applied to aggressively. Some very elite competitors have been disqualified for raking the outside of the leg, so this is where a lot of the controversy began.
________
EROTICA (http://www.fucktube.com/video/36266/blonde-girl-masturbates-erotically)

Mikey Triangles
10-30-2009, 08:18 AM
The two largest complaints I've heard regarding the 50/50 guard is;

1) Used as a stalling tactic. But, as time has gone on people are coming up with really cool transitions and submissions from this position. Unfortunately, a good amount of the submissions lead to the second issue.

2) People do not like that you cannot rake the knee with your outside leg but are allowed to do 50/50. They feel if one is illegal than the other should be as well since both ways offer the possibility of blowing a knee out if pressure is applied to aggressively. Some very elite competitors have been disqualified for raking the outside of the leg, so this is where a lot of the controversy began.


Reaping the leg is when you "turn the knee in". if turning the knee out also became an illegal leg reap that would make a ton of different sweeps that have nothing to do with 50/50 illegal also. Then where would we draw the line?

Shonuff
10-30-2009, 08:24 AM
Agreed.

How many deep half guard and X guard sweeps would become illegal if turning the knee out was against the rules??

Ari Bolden
10-30-2009, 10:40 AM
Therein lies the problem. The rules now set out by the ibjjf are becoming increasingly more restrictive and thus making techniques illegal. As such, there is a whole generation of jiu jitsu players that don't know defenses (or attacks) from certain positions.

Woolfpack01
10-30-2009, 11:06 AM
Reaping the leg is when you "turn the knee in". if turning the knee out also became an illegal leg reap that would make a ton of different sweeps that have nothing to do with 50/50 illegal also. Then where would we draw the line?

I couldn't agree with you more. But that is why there was some very frustrated competitors the last two years. The rules need to be a bit more universal. I am all for the overall safety of the competitors but this reaping of the knee issue needs to be addressed.
________
MERCURY TOPAZ SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mercury_Topaz)

zaxonortesus
10-30-2009, 01:07 PM
Having only competed in one Jiu-jitsu competition, I ask out of a desire to know......

In striking arts, if you have absolutely smoked your opponent for most of the fight and you just kill time in the last round because your opponent has no chance of beating you unless he knocks you out - that's pretty much understood and accepted by everyone, including the fighters.

Is it different in Jiu-jitsu competition? I don't mean "is it done", I mean is it accepted by the fighters as "yeah, he beat him" type of thing, or is it more, "the bastard was stalling to protect his ass for the win" kind of thing?

Otto, I think the difference is that a BJJ match is relatively short, whereas in boxing/MT/KB/MMA/etc the rounds are 2-5 min long, and there are 3-5 of them, with breaks to reevaluate and re-attack. Also, I think it's a lot easier to cause permanent brain damage if you are sitting and teeing off on someone for 5 min vs changing positions and looking for submissions for another 2 min.

Otto
10-30-2009, 07:09 PM
The organizations/commitees that change rules or outlaw techniques because of political or personal reasons are the very bane of fighting arts everywhere. Shame on them, and shame on their memory when they pass, for they long ago lost their way and deserve no pity, slack or ancestors.