Submission hold/locks

[Musashi]

Maybe it's me. But what is up with grappler's or submission wrestler, it seems to me no matter how much you watch whether amateur or Professional cage fights they all do the same holds/lock. I mean no one does anything different, rear naked chock; aka the sleeper, the ever famous side arm extension and some can actually get off a guillotine. Don't get me wrong they do some other moves but every one of these are still your basic submission moves that every one watching knows the name of. Ok your right most of the time you'll see a new one emerge but these are few and far between.

I guess this kind of stems from, not really I've actually been thinking about this for a while, the last UFC match I watched, Matt Hughes vs. BJ Penn, I was awhile ago but there was a match were a guy was trying to go for the rear naked chock. As you could imagine his opponent was keeping his chin down, so after a little bit the guy gave up and did something else. So that would bring me to the so called point.

Why do the exactly same move as everyone else, why? Do you think there not going to know the counter or their just dumb enough to let you pull it off? The answer to that question is Yes, the are going to know the counter and NO their not dumb enough to fall for it. So WHY DO IT.

There are a ton of styles out there and a lot of people who think out side of the box when it come to this kind of fighting, most you will never see in the ring. The reason for this is a lot of the styles are pretty brutal and the ground fighting techniques are very destructive, you noticed I said ground fighting instead of grappling. There is a big different, in my opinion and experiances. The UFC and all the amateur cage fights have the rules set up so that ground fighters will be disqualified.

Some of the such people are Judo Gene Lebell who has some ground fighting techniques that are out of the box and totally devastating. Most of Lebells stuff can be seen on the pro wresting circuit, most of the weird out of this world submission hold you see were taught by lebell. Other such stuff is Dumog a Filipino ground fighting, sambo, hapakido, Wally jay's small circle jujitsu just to name a few.

The application of these move are the same movements and the basic move but with a greater result. A prime example of this is lets say your going for a rear naked choke, but it's blocked as in the above situation, instead of laying there and keep trying for the chock around the neck chock out something else! What else is there to choke u ask, well instead of the neck/ throat try the nose or the side of the jaw, you lock it in just like if doing a chock but it's a crushing of the jaw bone, or after you go for a side arm extension drop the heal to the face.
Now I can hear all of you say what does he know, or yeah right its easy from the side lines, well I fought before in a armature Cage matches that were set up just like the first UFC a real no-holds-bared matches, most of these were very brutal, as well as I trained in martial arts for over 18years and study many arts. Some mentioned here. But this is my opinion and you now what they say.

[Hadaka Jime]

it seems to me no matter how much you watch whether amateur or Professional cage fights they all do the same holds/lock. I mean no one does anything different, rear naked chock; some can actually get off a guillotine.

Do you think there not going to know the counter or their just dumb enough to let you pull it off? The answer to that question is Yes, the are going to know the counter and NO their not dumb enough to fall for it. So WHY DO IT.

but it's blocked as in the above situation, instead of laying there and keep trying for the chock around the neck chock out something else! , well instead of the neck/ throat try the nose or the side of the jaw, you lock it in just like if doing a chock

first spell check you writing... when you say chock it makes it hard to take you seriously, and here's my argument to you

you say why try a basic submission? well maybe because in nearly every MMA fight when a fighter gets put in a rear naked choke or guillotine they are forced to tap out or go to sleep, yes they are common, but it's not because one fighter is stupid and can't stop it... but when they are getting there face pounded in when mounted they roll and try to defend getting punched and give up position to get choked, and the guillotine another one you said is common, when a wrestler shoots for a take down all the defender has to do is slip one arm under the neck and lean back fall into full guard and the guillotine is extremely hard to get out of when you have no arms in and your in full guard, there is no were to go so many people tap, and are all people who get guillotined stupid? NO! yes you can prevent falling into a bad situation and getting choked, but when your getting beat bad in stand up and your sloppy on a shoot then you can easily get guillotined and if your mounted and getting smacked around it is hard to to give up your back, and if you don't punches and elbows will rain down on your face and the ref will stop the fight or you will get knocked the f@#$ out, so complain all you want about seeing read naked chokes often but it's because some one with 1 minute of jiu jitsu practice can learn the move, it's easy and very effective, and if was so easy to stop and every one knows the counter then why is there about 50 fights were you see a rear naked work, per every 1 were you see the fighter escape... yes there are people with good submission defense but there are a lot of people with good jiu jitsu who can tap you out with 1 of 300 different techniques but they take what ever comes to them, if you give up your back i am not gonna say "oh lets pass on the rear naked choke and go for a flashy uncommon submission, some people do and risk a lot of wins but they are good at it, but a good technical jiu jitsu practitioner will get what ever submission you give them, and to a lot of people jiu jitsu is not exciting to watch, but if you know a lot of jiu jitsu and can understand the ground game and all the set ups guard passes etc... then it's exciting but if you really have 18 years of study in martial arts none of the things i said should be new... but by some of the ignorant things you've said i doubt the fact that you have 18 years of martial arts experience if you do then much of it wasn't in jiu jitsu

[Musashi]

Sorry I'm not a English major like you..
No were did i say they weren't effective, and if the situation arises then by all mean use them especially if some one give you there back, my point was to load your arsenal with as many "weapons" as possible not just the easiest and yes effective. As a Jiu Jitsu guy your not just going to train in just those right, your going to also try to get a triangle choke, maybe an ankle lock or train in doing a rear naked choke form all position and also train to work the arm back and forth or pull up on the forehead or your going to set him up for something else Correct. Your not just going to give up and say " man i hope he'll give me his arm". It seems to me that every fighter now-a-days says their a Jiu Jitsu, or BJJ or GJJ practitioner, then when they hit the ground they go for a lot of the move i was talking about, a lot of the time missing so many other opportunities to execute other holds or locks not what a true Jiu Jitsu practitioner would do. At least that not how i learned Jiu Jitsu.

I believe that a true ground fighter can get any move off if they want to, and are fully prepared for what to come and a MMA fighter shouldn't be a boxer that knows how to wrestle.. again this is how i feel

[Hadaka Jime]

see i think a lot of the things i disagree with you on are that you think that a BJJ user goes into a fight thinking I'm going for the rear naked choke, and if i don't get it then I don't know what to do... every one from new purple belts up to 9th degree black and red belts at every gracie academy i have been to or trained at, if you are purple or higher then you know at least 32 techniques from sweeps to take downs and submissions but it's not that you know the technique... it's knowing how to move from position to position and while you move you transfer from submission to submission, a great example is the frank shamrock vs dan henderson fight... i think both these guys were/are great MMA fighters, but when you watch the fight frank shamrock went for a knee bar on each leg and then finished with a heel hook (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUanusYxDhE) so i mean i don't see how you think people go in to a match with that state of mind you described...

i honestly don't know one person who has been doing jiu jitsu for over 1 year thats went into a fight saying I'm going to win by RNC and if i don't than i can't throw any thing else... the one thing similar to that witch also disproves you is Rickson Gracie... in my eyes one of if not the best fighters of all time... when he rolled if he wanted to work on knee bars he would walk up to your face and say, im going to knee bar you left leg... and you'd roll and try to stop him and he still would get it, but again he is one of the best of all time and was so good at set ups he could get a submission that he wanted but he also used transitions... and BJJ is a dominent fighting style so i don't see how you can disagree with the fact that submissions are hard to stop and easy to fall into

[Fox1s2]

No were did i say they weren't effective, and if the situation arises then by all mean use them especially if some one give you there back, my point was to load your arsenal with as many "weapons" as possible not just the easiest and yes effective.


Why would you not want to utilize the easiest and most effective, thats kind of the point?

[Hadaka Jime]

my point exactly..

[TheRob]

why do MMA guys throw so many more Jabs then spinning Backfists
because they work
you don't see a lot of backward summersault kicks because well, not practical
same thing with grappling

[Hobobagins]

and whats wrong with a boxer being a good wrestler in MMA? thats why it is called MIXED martial arts. and if u give up an RNC just cuz u want a flashy submission that nobody has seen before then there is something wrong with your priorities.

[Ari Bolden]

When fighting, I don't give up a superior position unless:

1) my skill far out classes my opponent so I can take risks
2) my original attack is getting stuffed so I go for other options (that's how the pentagram was created...out of necessity)
3) my oppenent makes a mistake and gives me options for another type of submission

[OutwardRooted]

As has already been said, the RNC, guillotine, and ude garame are the most used because they are the easiest to attain. Say you got their back, you got your hooks in, all that. You have the perfect position. Why risk that by going for, say, some jacked up reverse triangle choke or something when a simple rear naked works, and you get the victory? Makes no sense. Oh, there's lots you can do from there, like a kata hajime or okuri ere jime, but those require more time and effort, and can be pretty hard to pull off in a sanctioned fight where they aren't wearing gi's or shirts. In the sport of MMA, it makes no sense to go flashy when you're trying to get the quickest, cleanest victory you can. If you're fighting some jobber on the street, go to town, since they'll most likely be equipped with your standard haymaker punch and maybe a take down or kick. But in the ring, simplicity is the best way.

[Ryan]

Who wants to take a risk and perform some sweet looking submission when you can pull off a guillotine and get the same result? I have seen a few sweet submissions in MMA but in most cases the person was pretty much toying with them. Chris Lytle put on a sweet sub in his last fight. I believe the opponent was on his stomach and Lytle was on top with an armbar/triangle.

Guys be nice :D

[Ari Bolden]

I ain't gonna lie...if I can, I'll twist you up so bad you'll be like " what the heck?" It's FUN.

You've got to remember also that some "hard looking submissions" are easy for some guys to get.

People say" the gogoplata is too hard" or " No one really get's anything from rubber guard."

There are guys out there that are GOOD at what they do. A twister is as easy as RNC to them(*cough*cough* Eddie *cough). It all depends on your style and what they practice.

[Ryan]

I ain't gonna lie...if I can, I'll twist you up so bad you'll be like " what the heck?" It's FUN.

You've got to remember also that some "hard looking submissions" are easy for some guys to get.

People say" the gogoplata is too hard" or " No one really get's anything from rubber guard."

There are guys out there that are GOOD at what they do. A twister is as easy as RNC to them(*cough*cough* Eddie *cough). It all depends on your style and what they practice.

Are you referring to a BJJ tournament or a MMA fight? See, I would agree wholeheartedly that I would love to try out new and special things in a BJJ tournament but in an MMA fight where your getting punched, knee'd, kicked and elbowed that it is probably best to get the easiest thing locked in.

[Tom Gavrilos]

Position before submission...thats why Sambo and BJJ look so different.

RNC and Guillotines are not just common for no reason...they are logical.
RNC is the most practical submission from the back and the guillotine is most practical when being attached or when someone is attempting to take you down.

I guess in my fight (which was sloppy at best IMO) I could have went for the arm bar. When he was turning his back to me it was right there..but it makes more sense to go for the higher %age aka more logical finish for me.

but what do I know? ;)

[BadKarmaRising]

It's really easy to sit there yelling at the TV "take the ankle!" or "heel hook heel hook!"

I know it's easy because I do it almost nightly :)


It gets a little more complicated when you're going to be eating leather the whole time.


"Everyone has a plan... until they get hit"

[Ferret]

My mom helps show me a lot of moves in our trailer. We just have to move the coffee table into the kitchen.

[Ryan]

My mom helps show me a lot of moves in our trailer. We just have to move the coffee table into the kitchen.

Um...... hi. Welcome to the forums.... could you give some information about yourself? Kinda suspicious but I will go with it. lol

What kind of moves does your mom show u? :confused:

[Ryan]

Position before submission...thats why Sambo and BJJ look so different.

RNC and Guillotines are not just common for no reason...they are logical.
RNC is the most practical submission from the back and the guillotine is most practical when being attached or when someone is attempting to take you down.

I guess in my fight (which was sloppy at best IMO) I could have went for the arm bar. When he was turning his back to me it was right there..but it makes more sense to go for the higher %age aka more logical finish for me.

but what do I know? ;)

Tom- did you see those moves during the fight or did you not realize what you had until you saw the tape?

[Ryan]

I ain't gonna lie...if I can, I'll twist you up so bad you'll be like " what the heck?" It's FUN.

You've got to remember also that some "hard looking submissions" are easy for some guys to get.

People say" the gogoplata is too hard" or " No one really get's anything from rubber guard."

There are guys out there that are GOOD at what they do. A twister is as easy as RNC to them(*cough*cough* Eddie *cough). It all depends on your style and what they practice.

I tell ya. Chris Leben has a pretty good rubber guard during his fights. I hate the guy but I am not above giving someone props.

[Tallsilkyslim]

I agree with Hadake Jime. As a submission fighter, you take what is given. If you plan on a submission from mount but end up in guard, now what? Rickson said it best....."You must reach a zero point, a void with no set plan, just flow with the go." And I have more than a little faith in Rickson's teachings.

[Ryan]

I agree with Hadake Jime. As a submission fighter, you take what is given. If you plan on a submission from mount but end up in guard, now what? Rickson said it best....."You must reach a zero point, a void with no set plan, just flow with the go." And I have more than a little faith in Rickson's teachings.

psssh.... Rickson who? :D I agree, when I wrestled I went in with an initial game plan to circle around, head tap, level change, fake shot then a takedown but after that it was all by ear. I may have said after I got a takedown I would go for a cradle or some type of half nelson pin but I never had an entire match planned for the same reasons you mentioned.

[Forkfoot]

I think exotic submissions have are useful in both submissions grappling and MMA. It's the punch you don't see coming that knocks you out; Chuck Liddell's built a career on this principle. Look at Jason Von Flue for example. His trademark choke is the easiest thing in the world to get out of, and yet the dude's gotten like half his wins off of it. It was successful not because it's harder to defend than the more orthodox submissions, but because his opponents had no idea wtf was happening until they woke up and watched it on the monitor. Now he'll never submit anyone with it in competition as long as he lives because they'll be familiar with it. You think Hellboy had any idea what was happening to him when the gogoplata made its MMA debut? It's kinda the whole reason BJJ was practically unbeatable in the early days of MMA; people were being owned by stuff they had no idea how to defend, had never drilled escaping from, and may never have even seen before. Once wrestlers & kickboxers started learning BJJ it wasn't nearly as dominant anymore.

[BigD]

another way to look at the issue...

which move have you performed more repetitions of, the guillotine/armbar/RNC you learned in your first month of grappling, or the hyper-exotic 12 "point full body submission combo of insurmountable victory" that you learned a month ago?

I don't do MMA, because I hate getting hit ;) , but seriously, the subs you're complaining about are the most basic, efficient, and well practiced moves in anyone's BJJ arsenal.

Just like the jab is more practiced that the leaping somersault tiger uppercut.

Reflexes and instinct make the most ingrained moves pop up in the actual combat. I know when I compete in BJJ I know way more moves than I shoot for because my vision exceeds my reach. Anyone can broaden their vision by watching a seminar or a highlight reel, but your reach is the moves you are actually good at.