Why many instructors don't allow leg locks at white belt.

[Ari Bolden]

The common thought is that leg locks at the white belt level are too dangerous to teach because the white belt doesn't:
a) understand the mechanics and reefs too hard when applying them on others and/or
b) understand the mechanics and doesn't tap because he or she doesn't feel "pain" until its too late.

There are many moves in jiu jitsu that will destroy a joint. Some will tear muscles and some will break bones. Its a fact. Its a martial art. Its leverage. It works.

As such, many instructors will not teach leg locks until the student has a firm grasp in jiu jitsu mechanics. I used to be of the thought that people should learn as much as they can (and I still do!) but I have changed (gasp!) my outlook to slow down what I allow at what levels in my gym. Its actually pretty standard.

Having said that, when I teach JJJ, I tell my students the same thing over and over (which is applicable to BJJ). A resisting opponent will require more INTENT by you for a move to work. No resistance. No Challenge. No injury.

[Ryan]

Our instructor had us go to the point of the leg lock and to put everything on BUT the pressure.... basically he just showed us what it looked like and that was it.

I understand the point of not allowing certain levels to do that but here is my question....... if you don't allow a white belt to perform the move..... how does a higher level belt know when to tap when that is the first time they have seen leg locks? Is it something in teaching humility or is it something else?

[Micky]

I've been thinking about this subject recently.

Not only for safety reasons I actually think it's more of a priority to learn and develop techniques that apply to the upper-body aspect of the game.

I think I might of read somewhere that up until a short time ago winning a bjj match by leg-lock was considered a dirty move, and wasn't really a big part of the game...in compotition anyway. I could be very wrong though.

[Ryan]

I could just imagine getting in a fight (1 on 1) like a street fight and throwing on a leg lock and the guy being like wtf? The guy wakes up later with no use of his leg..... I wonder why it takes so long to feel the effects

[Turf]

I think, and this is just the ramblings of a little ole blue belt, leg locks are really, really cool. Honestly, they look so much more impressive than a collar choke. So, what are the new guys gonna want to pull off?

The problem is if you don't know when you're caught, you don't know to tap. Then, POP! No more knee. You're out for six months to a year. By the time you're a blue belt, you've tapped enough times to know when you're caught. Also, you don't have near the ego after you've been humbled for a couple of years.
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[spud]

In the Machado BJJ syllabus there is no leg locks until purple belt for the same reasons, too many injuries. Low single leg ankle picks are also rarely practised live due to the amount of knee injuries caused by the head pressing on the inside of the knee to complete the takedown.

Having said that though I agree with Turf, leg locks are very cool, especially knee bars!

[Tallsilkyslim]

Do you think takedowns should be in the same category as a knee bar? Lots of injuries happen from single legs, as mentioned before.

Leg locks are a funny thing. Unlike a choke or an armbar, you don't gradually feel pressure until tapping. It is all or nothing it seems like to me. Dangerous stuff. But they work. Just ask this guy:

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[younwha]

Had a guy come to the dojo once, trained in the backyard with his buddies. Thought he was better than he was. He pulled guard, I passed into a knee bar, had it on tight, he was in pain, he didn't want to tap. So I let him go after about 30 seconds. He would have let his knee get destroyed before he tapped [edit] his grappling for the day was over...

[NebS]

I think I might of read somewhere that up until a short time ago winning a bjj match by leg-lock was considered a dirty move, and wasn't really a big part of the game...in compotition anyway. I could be very wrong though.

I think it is looked at like a dirty move, cause as the guys here have said, with just a little pressure, pop goes the knee/ankle before you can even tap. However, submarines were considered dirty in war when they first came out, and they happen to be an effective silent killer.

The things that work almost too well are most often referred to as 'dirty' techniques.

[sodaghost]

Yeah, I think by the time you hit blue belt you're familiar enough with body mechanics and jiu jitsu in general that you can feel a leg lock coming on before somebody less experienced would. It's subtle cues in the other guy's body language, how tight the set-up feels, as well as the feeling in the joint itself. Plus, by blue belt, you're wary of leg locks because you've heard of them, so you know to be careful.

Leg locks are dangerous for a few reasons in my opinion. One, since they're generally not allowed at lower levels, beginners--who like to yank on stuff anyway--might not be ready for how fast they come on. Which is no problem if they've got a good partner, but they might be with another white belt. Another reason is the lack of nerves, so you don't feel much pain. Last reason is the sheer length of the leg. It gives you so much more leverage to work with when you're attacking it--it's a force multiplier for sure.

[Matt]

I disagree, leg locks at any level.

You don't get in a car and only drive on main roads when you start your lessons, you go on back roads, motors ways etc..

Same with leg locks, if a white belt injuries some one with a leg lock.. its not cause leg locks are dangerous its cause you didn't teach them properly, less there fault.. more yours.

[CEB]

The common thought is that leg locks at the white belt level are too dangerous to teach because the white belt doesn't:
a) understand the mechanics and reefs too hard when applying them on others and/or
b) understand the mechanics and doesn't tap because he or she doesn't feel "pain" until its too late.

There are many moves in jiu jitsu that will destroy a joint. Some will tear muscles and some will break bones. Its a fact. Its a martial art. Its leverage. It works.

As such, many instructors will not teach leg locks until the student has a firm grasp in jiu jitsu mechanics. I used to be of the thought that people should learn as much as they can (and I still do!) but I have changed (gasp!) my outlook to slow down what I allow at what levels in my gym. Its actually pretty standard.......

:D :D If I recall correctly way back when ...... I told you so. :D :D

[CEB]

I disagree, leg locks at any level.

You don't get in a car and only drive on main roads when you start your lessons, you go on back roads, motors ways etc..

Same with leg locks, if a white belt injuries some one with a leg lock.. its not cause leg locks are dangerous its cause you didn't teach them properly, less there fault.. more yours.

Bullhockey, The manner you teach a white belt is often a non-mitigating factor. White belts are just spazzes many times. They get excited, they go hard when they shouldn't and they don't relax. Heck they do not even know how to breathe when do Jiu Jitsu. It takes a little time for them to get acclimated to the training environment.

I eventually quit going to BJJ fundemental classes and only went to advanced classes. I really like material and format of the fundemental classes but beginners are dangerous.

[Otto]

Beginners are clumsy and dangerous on the ground. Especially for old people like me. In stand up – they have no concept of timing or angles, they usually just come in and swing. But even with that the case, you usually bang something up when you spar with them.

On the ground, I find that good purple belts can handle any beginner, regardless of size or strength. And when you roll with a purple belt, they'll put a leg lock on you and just give you that look. So you tap and never get hurt. Not so with beginners. I hate beginners. I wouldn't grapple with a beginner even if she was naked.

[Razors Edge]

I really like material and format of the fundemental classes but beginners are dangerous.

Yeah. Rolling with a beginner is like wrestling an alligator. It can be fun if you know what you're doing, but even if you do there's always a chance you'll get hurt.

[Ari Bolden]

Beginners are also more likely to injure an experienced player than another experience grappler would.

CEB, isn't it awesome that we have the ability to change our minds in life? That is how forgiveness is achieved as well as growth as a person:)

Professor Sauer said that a black belt may grapple with a blue or white belt and actually have a tougher time getting submissions sometimes because beginners dont see the big picture. They tend to focus on the immediate, like holding on so tight it takes longer to work free for something. A black belt vs another black belt tend to flow more because the are seeing 3,4,5 moves ahead. They give up "position" in order to get the submission down the road.

I have a video of him talking about it. I will put it up. Its pretty neat.

[Ari Bolden]

Beginners are clumsy and dangerous on the ground. Especially for old people like me. In stand up – they have no concept of timing or angles, they usually just come in and swing. But even with that the case, you usually bang something up when you spar with them.

On the ground, I find that good purple belts can handle any beginner, regardless of size or strength. And when you roll with a purple belt, they'll put a leg lock on you and just give you that look. So you tap and never get hurt. Not so with beginners. I hate beginners. I wouldn't grapple with a beginner even if she was naked.

I agree with Otto here mostly (although I think I may roll with the naked chick). You can have the most detailed teaching style in the world. You may have the most mellow student as well. Once put in the mix, when the adrenaline is pumping, certain things fly out of the window.

The real questions becomes, when is a beginner not a beginner (and I don't mean 'we are all beginners bla bla bla'). Is it a belt level, time put in or personal development (since we all learn at different rates)?

I get a sense that some white belts/ blue on this board are probably more tempered than others. Obviously a Catch guy with 5 years experience with no belt is EXPERIENCED enough to know the difference and is probably rolling at a purple to brown level.

[BadKarmaRising]

Beginners are also more likely to injure an experienced player than another experience grappler would.



ALL of my serious injuries have come from trying to protect spaztic white belts.

[AJ]

I still think that the right environment can be nurtured to allow for a safe grappling environment for leg locks. However, most gyms run off of a policy of poor inter-gym communications. A policy of instruction where bullies get taught lessons rather than explained them.

That being said, the knee is a very complicated mechanism where bad things can happen without any intention for a submission. I recently injured my knee, from god knows what, however the night of the injury I was in a drawn out leg lock battle from the 50/50. I never went for a heel hook (I was practicing transitions in and out of the position) nor did my opponent, at all times I felt in control and in a dominant position. Yet somehow, I hurt the lateral side of my knee.

To this day I have no idea what happened. The only thing that I can think is that my partner may have gone for a toehold while I was belly down and my knee was straight.

Shonuff, had some great information about the potential injury that can be caused by toeholds and bad escapes, his opinion and my recent injury have me on the fence about this issue.

[Hari Khalsa]

I'll agree that most white belts are spazzoids. Muscle overcomes all I guess is the mentality. I generally avoid them, because I haven't officially learned how to do them yet, but if one is applied to me, then generally it is on. I think that people who don't tap when a lock is tight and obvious are just plain silly. Do they really need the pain sensation to open their logic centers? Who knows..

[sodaghost]

I think, like with many things, it's impossible to pinpoint any one factor that determines when someone goes from "beginner" to "intermediate" or "advanced." It's a mix of things. A guy who's been training for six months, but tends to get excited and force things, is more likely to injure someone than the guy with two months' experience, giant muscles and a level headed demeanor.

Past/other martial arts experience, maturity, observations (maybe they saw someone get badly hurt once), hearing the warnings from instructors or whoever, listening to those warnings, knowledge of anatomy, physical strength, temper, and how they like their training partner are all factors whether we want them to be or not.

[cuzz63]

My experience is that leglocks take you out of good position and thats not what beginners need to be focused on. I have seen beginners stop actually trying to pass the guard and attack the legs.

[ZeiShou]

I'll go ahead and off up my lil' non-belted-white-belt opinion :)

I've rolled with enough people, I've used enough leg locks, and I've had enough used on me to know when to tap. I remember me and my instructor were rolling and he showed me a nice kneebar from bottom mount. I LOVE it. Have yet to pull it off, but it was GREAT. When he first put it on me I was confused. I sat and waited, but nothing happened. Then I tapped. I asked him to do it again, and this time I focused... I felt the pain sneaking up on me. I wouldn't have felt it unless I had focused (now, however, I can feel it a lot faster cause I notice it more now).

I think it all depends on the student to be honest. I would feel almost insulted if my instructor didn't let me do leg locks. Mainly because I put them in the position and then I verbally tell them "Tap, cause you might not feel it". Or I put it on VERY SLOWLY. I haven't had any problems with it, but I've also heard/watched enough horror stories to know not to fuck around when they're put on me. Resist, but to a point.

I think it's the injury factor more than likely. Like has been said, the pain likes to sneak up on you. Especially kneebars. It just feels like a little burn and then it comes all at once. Scary, even. I'd prefer not to roll with a white belt that used them, honestly. If they don't, I won't (and I usually talk to people about it beforehand if I intend to). I still think there are students who are mature enough to handle the knowledge and then there's the ones that aren't. Eh, it happens.