View Full Version : Belts........and BJJ Police
Tallsilkyslim
01-13-2011, 10:21 PM
To me it seems that they are never happy. If you are highly skilled and get promoted too early in their eyes, all of a sudden you are being called a fraud that didn't earn the belt. Then, if you take a long time between belts, or remain at a belt longer than someone usually would, you get accused of sandbagging.
I dunno just a small rant it just seems to me that belts complicate things. I understand the meaning, symbolism, tradition, and arguably the importance of them. It just seems like no matter what you cannot make everyone happy..
sodaghost
01-13-2011, 11:30 PM
I think it might be an internet thing more than a belt thing.
Take the internet out of the equation. Now, unless you compete on the world stage, the only people who even know about your belt are the ones who know you personally, or know people who know you. And when you've met someone, rolled with them, seen them roll, you have a much better idea of their skill level rather than having to just go by the belt.
It's the anonymity and the lack of information (and keyboard warriors) on the internet that gives rise to all this speculation (read: backstabbing), at least in my eyes. If all you read is black belt: 3 years, of course you're going to wonder. Black belt: 17 years is the same thing in the other direction.
If you took the self-proclaimed BJJ police and locked them in a room with the people they're trashing, God help them. Firsthand knowledge versus scanty net reading.
None of this is by way of excuse. If you can't say something nice, well, you know.
I think belts should be given via performance based.. Do it like a career. I mean I don't get a raise every 90 work days because I had been there for 90 work days or just because I showed up. I am eligible for one but if I fail to produce then I don't get a raise. To me, you don't even have to win but if you show significant improvement or knowledge in a real match situation then I believe you deserve the next belt or stripe.
If you can't or don't want to compete then I think you should have to test.
In my mind a school should have 3 different types of belt systems
1. Kids-(this is to prevent head swelling like our dear friend Kyle)
2. non-compete- this is a courage belt but one that isn't recognized past the gym. This would be for women/men in self defense only, handicap/disabled students and those searching simply for weight loss, friendship and a hobby.
3. Adult- This is where lifes journey really begins
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 12:11 AM
Its your journey, not anyone else's. What does it matter?
sodaghost
01-14-2011, 12:30 AM
I think belts should be given via performance based.. Do it like a career. I mean I don't get a raise every 90 work days because I had been there for 90 work days or just because I showed up. I am eligible for one but if I fail to produce then I don't get a raise. To me, you don't even have to win but if you show significant improvement or knowledge in a real match situation then I believe you deserve the next belt or stripe.
If you can't or don't want to compete then I think you should have to test.
In my mind a school should have 3 different types of belt systems
1. Kids-(this is to prevent head swelling like our dear friend Kyle)
2. non-compete- this is a courage belt but one that isn't recognized past the gym. This would be for women/men in self defense only, handicap/disabled students and those searching simply for weight loss, friendship and a hobby.
3. Adult- This is where lifes journey really begins
I'd agree with you if the whole point of a belt wasn't standardization.
Razors Edge
01-14-2011, 07:29 AM
To me it seems that they are never happy. If you are highly skilled and get promoted too early in their eyes, all of a sudden you are being called a fraud that didn't earn the belt. Then, if you take a long time between belts, or remain at a belt longer than someone usually would, you get accused of sandbagging.
I dunno just a small rant it just seems to me that belts complicate things. I understand the meaning, symbolism, tradition, and arguably the importance of them. It just seems like no matter what you cannot make everyone happy..
What brought this up? Is someone questioning your belt online? Is someone calling you a fraud?
I have never ever ever had someone question my level. No body ever watches my youtube matches so that could be why. :D
BJJ police aren't an issue. If they have a problem with me they are welcome to roll with me.
The cases of people complaining about peoples belt ranking is actually very very small compared to the number of ranked students so I personally dont think this is a big issue. Tahts just me though.
http://blogs.technet.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer-Components-PostAttachments/00-02-99-89-79/wrong.jpg
It is just an internet thing. Musicians treat each other just as poorly and the way that Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics address each other on the internet really saddens me.
It seems more people have in common the more they go medieval on each other.
The other guy is always the infidel.
Have a great weekend.
adonis
01-14-2011, 10:54 AM
BJJ Police and Belt Questioning serves its purpose. Don't get me wrong some times they can get petty and nitpick small and insignificant details and blow them out of proportion to discredit some one. However they do work they have outed several fakes, including Former 10th Planet Brandon Quick.
It shouldn't be a big deal if they question some ones belt. If some one is legit its not hard to tell when and from whom they got there belt from any other basic details. Its when people don't adequately answer the claims, ignore them, or give Bogus or bs answers, refuse to answer, or dodge the questions. That get them more riled up. Again its not that hard to answer questions about belt level( What belt? From whom? whem? Ect...)
As said above its mostly an internet thing. Outside those who frequent Martial Art forums, not many people pay that much attention or care to. They just want to train and get better.
I'd agree with you if the whole point of a belt wasn't standardization.
Please correct me if I didn't get what you were saying in your post...... but here is my understanding....... If everyone in the BJJ and martial arts world was held to 1 standard then there would be a lot of disappointed and unmotivated people on so many levels.
I could spend each and every day for the next 20 years constantly trying to improve my skill and be promoted and I would still get humiliated by the likes of a Demian Maia or a Marcello Garcia. So, should I be held at their same standard since they are elite? In the same respect, should a person with limited ability be stuck at a standard white belt for their entire life because they don't have the capability to pull off an omaplata? Not all people should be created equal in terms of their abilities
Shonuff
01-14-2011, 12:54 PM
Please correct me if I didn't get what you were saying in your post...... but here is my understanding....... If everyone in the BJJ and martial arts world was held to 1 standard then there would be a lot of disappointed and unmotivated people on so many levels.
I could spend each and every day for the next 20 years constantly trying to improve my skill and be promoted and I would still get humiliated by the likes of a Demian Maia or a Marcello Garcia. So, should I be held at their same standard since they are elite? In the same respect, should a person with limited ability be stuck at a standard white belt for their entire life because they don't have the capability to pull off an omaplata? Not all people should be created equal in terms of their abilities
Black Belt is where the standardization stops in BJJ.
Up until that point the skill levels should be basically the same per belt rank. This is why some people advance faster than others through the lower ranks.
And while all people aren't created equal in their abilities there is no constitutional right to be promoted to a certain belt. Either you can perform as necessary or you can't.
As an example I am color deficient... no matter how much time in a flight simulator I put in, no matter how hard I could try I could never qualify to be a pilot in the military. This doesn't mean I might not find some value in training my ass off trying though.
Black Belt is where the standardization stops in BJJ.
Up until that point the skill levels should be basically the same per belt rank. This is why some people advance faster than others through the lower ranks.
And while all people aren't created equal in their abilities there is no constitutional right to be promoted to a certain belt. Either you can perform as necessary or you can't.
As an example I am color deficient... no matter how much time in a flight simulator I put in, no matter how hard I could try I could never qualify to be a pilot in the military. This doesn't mean I might not find some value in training my ass off trying though.
What would be the harm in it though? I think Kyle's mentality would have been different had he been granted a "minor" black belt instead of a full fledged "adult" one. I think he would still be under the impression that he had much to learn instead of thinking he was the top dog.
adonis
01-14-2011, 01:18 PM
I agree with Shonuff,
younwha
01-14-2011, 01:57 PM
I never understand the whole 'sandbagging' theory. When I roll with someone new and they tell me they're a purple belt, and I kick their ass... I laugh to myself. When they tell me they're a white belt and kick my ass... I say wow this guy's good, I need to train with him more often. Sandbagging to me only seems to matter to people who are interested more in sport training than Martial knowledge.
And in all seriousness, the BJJ police are a bunch of pussies anyway what do they know aside from how to look up a technique on youtube?
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Black Belt is where the standardization stops in BJJ.
Up until that point the skill levels should be basically the same per belt rank. This is why some people advance faster than others through the lower ranks.
And while all people aren't created equal in their abilities there is no constitutional right to be promoted to a certain belt. Either you can perform as necessary or you can't.
As an example I am color deficient... no matter how much time in a flight simulator I put in, no matter how hard I could try I could never qualify to be a pilot in the military. This doesn't mean I might not find some value in training my ass off trying though.
Nice insight about this. Jeff, how do you tackle the question that each association or instructor has different expectations on what it takes to get a belt? Is it possible for a person who started training at 50 to get their black belt in BJJ (let's assume they are not able to perform all the moves required due to body break down or injury)?
There is an obvious difference in skill between at 25 year old super athletic BB and a 50 year old BB. Do we compare their skill or only between their peer group (same age)?
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 02:12 PM
I never understand the whole 'sandbagging' theory. When I roll with someone new and they tell me they're a purple belt, and I kick their ass... I laugh to myself. When they tell me they're a white belt and kick my ass... I say wow this guy's good, I need to train with him more often. Sandbagging to me only seems to matter to people who are interested more in sport training than Martial knowledge.
And in all seriousness, the BJJ police are a bunch of pussies anyway what do they know aside from how to look up a technique on youtube?
Brandon
We would be remiss if even we were to make such a blanketed statement. The BJJ police is a pejorative term that covers a wide group of people. Some people in this group are bad and others good (whatever than means). Yes, I've had my fair share with both. The "group" as identified, is a self policing although not self regulating body. Anyone may wear the badge. It can be vindictive and informational. One BJJ police officer may have no problem with one person or group but dislike another. There is no standardization as opinion plays a large part in our decision making process.
Wow. Did I really just defend them? I guess anyone involved in BJJ is a BJJ police officer to some degree. If you love an art (whatever it is), you may or may not defend it. Some care. Some do not. My 2 cents.
cuzz63
01-14-2011, 02:26 PM
Please correct me if I didn't get what you were saying in your post...... but here is my understanding....... If everyone in the BJJ and martial arts world was held to 1 standard then there would be a lot of disappointed and unmotivated people on so many levels.
I could spend each and every day for the next 20 years constantly trying to improve my skill and be promoted and I would still get humiliated by the likes of a Demian Maia or a Marcello Garcia. So, should I be held at their same standard since they are elite? In the same respect, should a person with limited ability be stuck at a standard white belt for their entire life because they don't have the capability to pull off an omaplata? Not all people should be created equal in terms of their abilities
You dont set the standard at the elite level, you set it alot lower. If a belt color represents a certain standard then yes said white belt would be stuck if he didnt have the capability to pull off an Omaplata? If that was a requirement of the curriculum. Would you give a blind man a drivers license just because he shows up to lessons?
Years ago in my core art of Kyokushin we had a student that was older and had been through alot of physical issues. No way he would ever really "earn" his belt traditionally. But the guy was always there and always learning and was an asset to the club. A bunch of us got together during a testing and promoted him to "Shodan Ho" which is considered a provisional rank.
cuzz63
01-14-2011, 02:37 PM
I never understand the whole 'sandbagging' theory. When I roll with someone new and they tell me they're a purple belt, and I kick their ass... I laugh to myself. When they tell me they're a white belt and kick my ass... I say wow this guy's good, I need to train with him more often. Sandbagging to me only seems to matter to people who are interested more in sport training than Martial knowledge.
And in all seriousness, the BJJ police are a bunch of pussies anyway what do they know aside from how to look up a technique on youtube?
Sandbagging by definition is for sport where you enter a lower level than you really should be. How can one be a sandbagger if your instructor doesnt promote them? Some schools are slow promoting guys on their competition teams cause they need people at certain ranks.
I am sure there are some pussies in the group but ask yourself how long some of these BJJ BLack Belt frauds would be in business if it wasnt for them. Its alot more than just looking at guys techs on youtube.
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 02:45 PM
Do you guys remember that TKD (I think it was) video of that woman who had no arms (birth defect) who earned her black belt. I think we had a thread on it.
cuzz63
01-14-2011, 03:36 PM
I would add we are talking about 2 different groups, those who look for the outright frauds and those who want to nitpick.
Do you guys remember that TKD (I think it was) video of that woman who had no arms (birth defect) who earned her black belt. I think we had a thread on it.
Ari- That particular thread is the one I am getting at. There MUST be a ranking system within dojo's that motivate people to stay and go on. I think it would be amazing if my son went into a dojo and went up through the ranks of the childrens class and when he turned 18 entered a competition or rolled with the instructor to determine his adult ranking. How demoralizing is it for a kid when a teacher tells him that no matter how hard he trains he can only get to a blue belt before his 18th birthday or whatever it is for a particular sensei? Or even worse, a 1 armed student who obviously can't do every move but has mastered those he is capable of. Might as well quit now.
[QUOTE=cuzz63;104304] If a belt color represents a certain standard then yes said white belt would be stuck if he didnt have the capability to pull off an Omaplata? If that was a requirement of the curriculum. Would you give a blind man a drivers license just because he shows up to lessons?
QUOTE]
So let me get this straight, if I have a wrestling background and have mastered a guillotine, rear naked choke and a knee bar through countless hours of practice with several setups to get to each of those submissions and I can continuously tap out my instructor and his assistances that I shouldn't be promoted because I don't have the flexibility to do an omaplata?
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 06:39 PM
[quote=cuzz63;104304] If a belt color represents a certain standard then yes said white belt would be stuck if he didnt have the capability to pull off an Omaplata? If that was a requirement of the curriculum. Would you give a blind man a drivers license just because he shows up to lessons?
QUOTE]
So let me get this straight, if I have a wrestling background and have mastered a guillotine, rear naked choke and a knee bar through countless hours of practice with several setups to get to each of those submissions and I can continuously tap out my instructor and his assistances that I shouldn't be promoted because I don't have the flexibility to do an omaplata?
That is the crux of the issue I suppose Ryan and one people talk about all the time. Jean Jaques Machado has one hand and obviously there are a few techniques he can't do but he is a master nonetheless.
SavageKitsune
01-14-2011, 07:15 PM
Most of us have some limitations that we must learn to work around, and to develop the stronger parts of our game to make up for the weaker parts.
It's important to understand how an omoplata works, even if you'll never be able to do one yourself- so that you can teach it.
Shonuff
01-14-2011, 07:21 PM
Nice insight about this. Jeff, how do you tackle the question that each association or instructor has different expectations on what it takes to get a belt? Is it possible for a person who started training at 50 to get their black belt in BJJ (let's assume they are not able to perform all the moves required due to body break down or injury)?
There is an obvious difference in skill between at 25 year old super athletic BB and a 50 year old BB. Do we compare their skill or only between their peer group (same age)?
That is the one nice thing about coming up in a martial art where competitions with measurable results are so important.
While each association, or school, might have specific details or expectations at the end of the day when you step on the mat against someone from a different school who is the same belt you should be able to be competitive.
For example, if your particular organization requires X for purple belt and 90% of your purple belts consistently lose in their purple belt division, and are getting pressed hard by blue belts from other schools, then it should be a sign that the standards are "off" at your academy.
This is also where "sandbagging" becomes important. No-one gives a crap if your belt is lower than it should be unless you are competing. Then it comes back to the standardization point... if you are consistently winning your division you should be promoted, end of story. Eventually everyone ends up at Black Belt and then it comes down to who is better.
As to the question regarding people starting older, I would say it depends. I, personally, see nothing wrong with someone hitting their personal glass ceiling at a belt below black belt but the reality is that a black belt is nothing more than a white belt that didn't quit. Eventually that 50 year old will develop the skill, timing, etc... to hang with other black belts and when he does he should get promoted. The real question is will he stick around the 15 years it might take to pull that feat off? That burden is on the student and not the instructor.
Tallsilkyslim
01-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Sandbagging by definition is for sport where you enter a lower level than you really should be. How can one be a sandbagger if your instructor doesnt promote them? Some schools are slow promoting guys on their competition teams cause they need people at certain ranks.
I am sure there are some pussies in the group but ask yourself how long some of these BJJ BLack Belt frauds would be in business if it wasnt for them. Its alot more than just looking at guys techs on youtube.
Now this is where it gets interesting. What if someone is self taught, turning to books and videos to learn Jiu Jitsu, and has a group of guys that also want to train, and develops a solid game training in his neighbors basement. Lets say this person is even a bit of a natural. Strong. Athletic. And lets say this person enters a BJJ tournament as a blue belt, even though an instructor hasn't ever actually given him a belt, and he wins the competition. Should he then be rewarded a blue belt in BJJ? Or would you say, "No he would have to show me in a belt test that he knew all 88 moves proficiently"? Where is the line between basing the belt off of knowledge rather than off of competitive success? It seems to me to be a paradox of sorts.
SavageKitsune
01-14-2011, 08:03 PM
Now this is where it gets interesting. What if someone is self taught, turning to books and videos to learn Jiu Jitsu, and has a group of guys that also want to train, and develops a solid game training in his neighbors basement. Lets say this person is even a bit of a natural. Strong. Athletic. And lets say this person enters a BJJ tournament as a blue belt, even though an instructor hasn't ever actually given him a belt, and he wins the competition. Should he then be rewarded a blue belt in BJJ? Or would you say, "No he would have to show me in a belt test that he knew all 88 moves proficiently"? Where is the line between basing the belt off of knowledge rather than off of competitive success? It seems to me to be a paradox of sorts.
A black belt would need to be willing to stand behind that guy. Every belt that you bestow is a reflection on you and your school. One black belt might be willing to put hir name on that guy because he wins tournaments; another black belt might say, "Anyone *I* promote to blue belt needs to show me proficiency in these 88 moves."
Ari Bolden
01-14-2011, 08:12 PM
Too further add to the confusion, different schools of of Gracie (Brazilian) Jiu Jitsu require different things. Some are focused on competition training while others are more 'self defense' in focus. I often see some organizations claiming to be tougher and better than others based on what accolades they collect.
It reminds me of the video where that white belt didn't tap to a toe hold and literally had his big toe snapped off his foot. His partner/buddy proclaimed how 'tough and bad ass" they were at this particular academy. I just saw it as stupid and irresponsible. There is nothing tough about 'not tapping' and having something ripped off your body in a friendly roll. I certainly don't understand why a white belt was in a toe hold/leg lock battle like that either.
I find it interesting because you may have 20 students in a class with 4 or 5 different goals. 1 group may want to become sensei's one day and teach, another group wants to win Pan Ams and ADCC, another group may want the physical fitness while the other group wants self defense and confidence training. Now, you would want the future sensei group to be able to test and be proficient in 88 moves, the competition group only really needs to be successful, learn from mistakes and do move quickly, effectively and efficiently. You have the self defense people who you may teach "extra" strikes to for protection and so on and so forth. So, do you put different folks at different standards and if they cross over you re-grade them? For instance, a competitor is 15-0 in Grapplers Quest but wants to be a sensei at another gym.... Do you tell him he is a brown belt competitor but a purple belt in technique?
SavageKitsune
01-14-2011, 08:38 PM
I think that part of being a decent teacher is knowing your students well enough to know what they want to get out of this.... which would definitely mean some slightly different standards for each.
Another part of being a good teacher is knowing each student's strengths and weaknesses. Student A might have been able to to an omoplata on day one; student B might have had to work hard on that for two years. That successful omoplata might be Student B's ticket to blue belt. Student A.... you wouldn't hand her a blue belt on day one- you'd need something different from her.
I think that part of being a decent teacher is knowing your students well enough to know what they want to get out of this.... which would definitely mean some slightly different standards for each.
Another part of being a good teacher is knowing each student's strengths and weaknesses. Student A might have been able to to an omoplata on day one; student B might have had to work hard on that for two years. That successful omoplata might be Student B's ticket to blue belt. Student A.... you wouldn't hand her a blue belt on day one- you'd need something different from her.
Thats what I am saying. I think maybe teachers need to sit down and have a goal setting session with the student. If a student says "I want to win 4 tournaments per belt" then I would expect the teacher to say something like "Ok, we can do that but you need to win these 4 tournaments and you can't win every tournament with the same submission or you have to win over half of your matches by submissions and not points" This would give the student a goal.
Someone who wants to be a sensei someday should sit down with the teacher and the teacher should be able to tell them what they need to know to qualify for each belt. Your goal should determine how easy or hard it is to get your blackbelt.
Wow, confusing stuff.
I'm gonna pull this card out of my magical hat:
Just train. :D
cuzz63
01-14-2011, 11:21 PM
[QUOTE=cuzz63;104304] If a belt color represents a certain standard then yes said white belt would be stuck if he didnt have the capability to pull off an Omaplata? If that was a requirement of the curriculum. Would you give a blind man a drivers license just because he shows up to lessons?
QUOTE]
So let me get this straight, if I have a wrestling background and have mastered a guillotine, rear naked choke and a knee bar through countless hours of practice with several setups to get to each of those submissions and I can continuously tap out my instructor and his assistances that I shouldn't be promoted because I don't have the flexibility to do an omaplata?
When said that way you should be promoted. In my car driving analogy its like I can do everything except parallel park so I passed my drivers test with a 90% but I did pass. It would be stupid to hinge pass/fail on a single technique.
I would point out that not all promotions would/should be equal.
With a wrestling background and a few techniques you can beat/tap alot of people and maybe should be promoted to a Blue or Purple but that doesnt necessarily mean you should be promoted to a Brown or Black.
I had one of my instructors tell me that he didnt care how many of the Blue/Purple belts I could beat until I started training in the Gi he wouldnt promote me simply because I havent learned all the techniques.
Is your belt based off of who you can tap or what you know?
Or is it based off it's shininess and ability to hold your pants up :rolleyes:
adonis
01-15-2011, 01:32 AM
Thats what I am saying. I think maybe teachers need to sit down and have a goal setting session with the student. If a student says "I want to win 4 tournaments per belt" then I would expect the teacher to say something like "Ok, we can do that but you need to win these 4 tournaments and you can't win every tournament with the same submission or you have to win over half of your matches by submissions and not points" This would give the student a goal.
Someone who wants to be a sensei someday should sit down with the teacher and the teacher should be able to tell them what they need to know to qualify for each belt. Your goal should determine how easy or hard it is to get your blackbelt.
Regarding goal setting. My instructor did this recently where he made changes to the program he was teaching and ranking. Part of it was based on goals. For those who wanted to be Elite Competitor, those want to do a competition here and there, and those do don't want to compete at all he has diffrent standards or goals they need to obtain before they get ranked.
Razors Edge
01-15-2011, 03:05 AM
So let me get this straight, if I have a wrestling background and have mastered a guillotine, rear naked choke and a knee bar through countless hours of practice with several setups to get to each of those submissions and I can continuously tap out my instructor and his assistances that I shouldn't be promoted because I don't have the flexibility to do an omaplata?
Ignoring the other topics my question would be what part of your jiu jitsu game is so weak that you can't do an omoplata?
You don't need any flexibility at all to do one. All you need are proper hip movement, and if you can't do it something is wrong with your jiu jitsu, thus I personally wouldnt promote someone until they got it right. Who knows? It might just take them a week of focus.
Their are other examples of moves that aren't made for everyone, but the truth is those moves are EXTREMELY rare and the omoplata isn't one of them. I'm assuming you know that and you were just tossing the move out their as a rhetorical example.
For the record, I agree with you on belt standards. People who do this as a hobby and people who plan to make it a semi-profession should have different standards. That doesn't mean hobbyists are allowed to suck. It just means competitors have higher expectations before they get promoted. A 55 year old purple belt shouldnt be expected to tap every 21 year old blue belt.
SavageKitsune
01-15-2011, 05:48 AM
Your goal should determine how easy or hard it is to get your blackbelt.
It should ALWAYS be hard to get a blackbelt.... but for different people, that might mean different (still hard- for them) requirements.
Ignoring the other topics my question would be what part of your jiu jitsu game is so weak that you can't do an omoplata?
You don't need any flexibility at all to do one. All you need are proper hip movement, and if you can't do it something is wrong with your jiu jitsu, thus I personally wouldnt promote someone until they got it right. Who knows? It might just take them a week of focus.
Their are other examples of moves that aren't made for everyone, but the truth is those moves are EXTREMELY rare and the omoplata isn't one of them. I'm assuming you know that and you were just tossing the move out their as a rhetorical example.
...
Yes. The hardest thing about omoplata from full guard is being able to move the hips far enough to hit it. Generally I would hit it off combinations like triangle choke to omoplata, where i had control of the outside arm's wrist. I always move my hips in an angle on the choke in a way that gets my hips half way to where they need to be for omoplata.
Tallsilkyslim
01-15-2011, 08:06 AM
Ignoring the other topics my question would be what part of your jiu jitsu game is so weak that you can't do an omoplata?
You don't need any flexibility at all to do one. All you need are proper hip movement, and if you can't do it something is wrong with your jiu jitsu, thus I personally wouldnt promote someone until they got it right. Who knows? It might just take them a week of focus.
Their are other examples of moves that aren't made for everyone, but the truth is those moves are EXTREMELY rare and the omoplata isn't one of them. I'm assuming you know that and you were just tossing the move out their as a rhetorical example.
For the record, I agree with you on belt standards. People who do this as a hobby and people who plan to make it a semi-profession should have different standards. That doesn't mean hobbyists are allowed to suck. It just means competitors have higher expectations before they get promoted. A 55 year old purple belt shouldnt be expected to tap every 21 year old blue belt.
Now we are getting somewhere...:)
Is your belt based off of who you can tap or what you know?
Or is it based off it's shininess and ability to hold your pants up :rolleyes:
Here is the thing, I have a wrestling base. If I were to come up with 3-4 subs and totally master them or even tweak them to fit my style (Mckenzitine) and be able to set those 3-4 things up from multiple positions and I am cleaning house in tournaments...... Why shouldn't I be promoted? Especially if I am just using that ranking to keep from sandbagging tournaments. Now, I could do seminars as long as I am clear to the people hosting that those 3-4 subs plus wrestling is all I am capable of doing seminars over.
Its funny how you do the whole tongue in cheek thing about belts holding up pants but I am sure that would turn around if you had someone in your weight class with the ability to tap black belts but hadn't been promoted to justify the skill
Here is the thing, I have a wrestling base. If I were to come up with 3-4 subs and totally master them or even tweak them to fit my style (Mckenzitine) and be able to set those 3-4 things up from multiple positions and I am cleaning house in tournaments...... Why shouldn't I be promoted? Especially if I am just using that ranking to keep from sandbagging tournaments. Now, I could do seminars as long as I am clear to the people hosting that those 3-4 subs plus wrestling is all I am capable of doing seminars over.
Its funny how you do the whole tongue in cheek thing about belts holding up pants but I am sure that would turn around if you had someone in your weight class with the ability to tap black belts but hadn't been promoted to justify the skill
I'm just gonna quote Shonuff (Jeff) here on this one:
Don't chase belts, chase skill.
For my money, I really don't give 2 cents about the colour of the guys belt. If he can kick my ass (most likely), teach me something, and has an open enough mind to learn something from me, as well as do well in respective tournaments at his/her skill level and learn in a classroom environment, then I see no reason why that individual should not be promoted. It's kinda like not giving a dog a treat after he's done all these tricks for you, then grabbed your newspaper and a cold one from the fridge. It's just cruel and unusual.
You Jits guys might want to take a lesson from us guys in the karate world.
When the Karate Police SWAT team (Special Whining and Taunting) come to my door, I just produce my nifty Black Belt Certificate. It's got my name on it and everything. It came in a box of Cracker Jacks. Along with my belt, of course.
SavageKitsune
01-15-2011, 10:24 AM
Here is the thing, I have a wrestling base. If I were to come up with 3-4 subs and totally master them or even tweak them to fit my style (Mckenzitine) and be able to set those 3-4 things up from multiple positions and I am cleaning house in tournaments...... Why shouldn't I be promoted? Especially if I am just using that ranking to keep from sandbagging tournaments. Now, I could do seminars as long as I am clear to the people hosting that those 3-4 subs plus wrestling is all I am capable of doing seminars over.
Its funny how you do the whole tongue in cheek thing about belts holding up pants but I am sure that would turn around if you had someone in your weight class with the ability to tap black belts but hadn't been promoted to justify the skill
A guy could have a small handful of subs that he's REALLY really good at; that he can use to tap everyone.... that doesn't mean he necessarily has a decent base of BJJ knowledge. If I were a black belt, I would want my students to know certain things at each belt level. If this hypothetical guy can tap Rickson with his triangle but can't even describe what an omoplata is, I wouldn't want to stand behind his belt. He may be a black belt in Triangle, but he's not a BJJ black belt, because BJJ is more than just triangles.
I would also want my students to have some knowledge of how to teach, and dojo ettiquette, and other stuff. I wouldn't want my student to go to a tournament and tap Rickson but then not know how to count his own points, have his belt tied wrong, and be disrespectful to the ref.
A high-level martial artist needs to have some well-roundedness- not just a handful of great subs.
I think the biggest thing is, I think we've discussed this before, is what is the definition of a black belt, specifically one in BJJ? It will differ from instructor to instructor and style to style, but there has to be a basic streamline 'thing' that makes a black belt a black belt.
zaxonortesus
01-15-2011, 11:53 AM
We have different standards for different students at our gym. We have the guy that is there to learn an art and has been training for a couple of years, he's consistent, good, a D-1 athlete and commited. He doesn't want to compete, so at a certain point, he got his belt. We have other guys that competed, did well, moved away from it and are still blue belts, we also have guys that compete do mediocre in comps but throttle the other blue belts (who can consistantly hang with other blue belts, I would add) but are still white belts. Heck, I know of a guy who as a white belt was able to tap Ryan Hall as a purple with some frequency. I really think a standard is dumb, not everyone is the same physically nor mentally so why should everyone's point of promotion be the same? If you are putting in that kind of time and dedication, your coach will know when is the right time for you and will often have goals for you that you might not even know about (so you can't activly work for them, just something you get to eventually).
As far as the situation Preston described; if you aren't associated with anyone but train on your own and enter comps and beat blue belts... that makes you a white belt. A belt is something given by an instructor to a student, not just worn because someone thinks it's time. I can't go put on an Army uniform and call myself an E-3 because I can run fast, shoot well and know how the Army works. Rank in anything is something passed down. In that case, go and affiliate yourself with a school, even if it's one that is a ways away. Go, train, make weekend trips often, get the rank from someone and make it official.
cuzz63
01-15-2011, 02:26 PM
As far as the situation Preston described; if you aren't associated with anyone but train on your own and enter comps and beat blue belts... that makes you a white belt. A belt is something given by an instructor to a student, not just worn because someone thinks it's time. I can't go put on an Army uniform and call myself an E-3 because I can run fast, shoot well and know how the Army works. Rank in anything is something passed down. In that case, go and affiliate yourself with a school, even if it's one that is a ways away. Go, train, make weekend trips often, get the rank from someone and make it official.
Good answer for Preston, couldnt have answered it better myself.
zaxonortesus
01-15-2011, 03:47 PM
Here is the thing, I have a wrestling base. If I were to come up with 3-4 subs and totally master them or even tweak them to fit my style (Mckenzitine) and be able to set those 3-4 things up from multiple positions and I am cleaning house in tournaments...... Why shouldn't I be promoted? Especially if I am just using that ranking to keep from sandbagging tournaments. Now, I could do seminars as long as I am clear to the people hosting that those 3-4 subs plus wrestling is all I am capable of doing seminars over.
We have a guy that is in this same situation. He wrestled all through high school, then at the Naval Acadamy. Because of his wrestling, he can't enter into the white belt/beginner category so as a white belt he is entering and taking home medals in blue belt/intermediate divisions. But it's his wrestling that is getting him there, not his BJJ. He's using his wrestling to take guys down, scrambling to pass, mounting and basically stalls out looking for subs he's not able to hit on blue belts and wins on points almost 90% of the time. When he's on the bottom, he's using his wrestling to escape and has a few sweeps he can hit. He's a HIGH level wrestler, but a white belt in BJJ. Our coach has told him that if he can win a high level tournament or string together a set of wins in some smaller tournaments vs the second or third that he normally gets, he'll get his blue belt.
Training regularly with this guy, I've found that the only thing you really need is to be able to grip and slow it down to a higher level BJJ match and he's lost. I'll pull half guard or a foot lock guard, transition into a 50/50 guard or something else that takes more technique than scramble to defeat and I'm good. So if I'm beating the guy that is medaling at blue belt, what's that say for my skill?! Nothing. It's an art, not a math equation. There is no greater than/less than. Only personal journeys intermingled by battle, blood sweat and $100 entrance fees.
jakem
01-15-2011, 09:54 PM
We have a guy that is in this same situation. He wrestled all through high school, then at the Naval Acadamy. Because of his wrestling, he can't enter into the white belt/beginner category so as a white belt he is entering and taking home medals in blue belt/intermediate divisions. But it's his wrestling that is getting him there, not his BJJ. He's using his wrestling to take guys down, scrambling to pass, mounting and basically stalls out looking for subs he's not able to hit on blue belts and wins on points almost 90% of the time. When he's on the bottom, he's using his wrestling to escape and has a few sweeps he can hit. He's a HIGH level wrestler, but a white belt in BJJ. Our coach has told him that if he can win a high level tournament or string together a set of wins in some smaller tournaments vs the second or third that he normally gets, he'll get his blue belt.
Training regularly with this guy, I've found that the only thing you really need is to be able to grip and slow it down to a higher level BJJ match and he's lost. I'll pull half guard or a foot lock guard, transition into a 50/50 guard or something else that takes more technique than scramble to defeat and I'm good. So if I'm beating the guy that is medaling at blue belt, what's that say for my skill?! Nothing. It's an art, not a math equation. There is no greater than/less than. Only personal journeys intermingled by battle, blood sweat and $100 entrance fees.
qft....
thread over
jakem
01-15-2011, 09:58 PM
You Jits guys might want to take a lesson from us guys in the karate world.
When the Karate Police SWAT team (Special Whining and Taunting) come to my door, I just produce my nifty Black Belt Certificate. It's got my name on it and everything. It came in a box of Cracker Jacks. Along with my belt, of course.
actually i missed ottos post....^^^ thread over:D
Tom Gavrilos
01-15-2011, 10:42 PM
I think it might be an internet thing more than a belt thing.
Take the internet out of the equation. Now, unless you compete on the world stage, the only people who even know about your belt are the ones who know you personally, or know people who know you. And when you've met someone, rolled with them, seen them roll, you have a much better idea of their skill level rather than having to just go by the belt.
It's the anonymity and the lack of information (and keyboard warriors) on the internet that gives rise to all this speculation (read: backstabbing), at least in my eyes. If all you read is black belt: 3 years, of course you're going to wonder. Black belt: 17 years is the same thing in the other direction.
If you took the self-proclaimed BJJ police and locked them in a room with the people they're trashing, God help them. Firsthand knowledge versus scanty net reading.
None of this is by way of excuse. If you can't say something nice, well, you know.
SO well written.
mattamatta
01-16-2011, 09:47 AM
In my opinion, $100 is too high for an entrance fee.
Razors Edge
01-16-2011, 10:03 AM
Well. since we are knee deep in it, I will ask the question that I have wanted to ask for a long time.
Keyboard Warrior
BJJ Police
Hater
Those words. What do they mean? Everytime I really dig into those words being tossed around it always winds up a defense mechanism for someones reaction to anothers perceived douchebagish behavior.
Now lets be adults about this.
I've been working on my googlejitsu (GJJ) and I know what kind of events inspire threads like these.
1.The term keyboard warrior is retarded in a hobby/lifestyle forum. You can say that when talking about MMA, but get this. People who talk about grappling usually grapple. I Loooooove the irony that the people who make accusations of keyboard warriorisms are often less experienced in the sport being discussed than the person they are accusing.
2. BJJ is what it is because it police's itself. I said it before, and I will always say it. People turn to BJJ eventually because it's consistancy in quality. There is a reason why people with a MA background don't say "you know what, I really need to see what that Tang Su Do stuff is all about." That's because Karate, TKD, Krav, JJJ, all could have very good gyms, but unlike BJJ the chances of finding (what people generally consider) inadequate is large. BJJ doesn't have this problem because we have the so called BJJ police. ie; the people who point out bullshit they see. I double dare anyone here to point to a BJJ policing incidence where a person was truly forthcoming and didn't have their issue resolved almost immediately. It doesn't happen. If you are getting and maintaining heat from the public, you are doing something wrong period
3. Haterism. I dont want to get to far into it, but I will just repeat people who use the term "hater" are (again) just trying to justify their own douchebag mannerisms. Look at Kanye West as an example. Contrary to belief people you can actually be successful at something without making enemies.
jakem
01-16-2011, 10:29 AM
Well. since we are knee deep in it, I will ask the question that I have wanted to ask for a long time.
Keyboard Warrior
BJJ Police
Hater
Those words. What do they mean? Everytime I really dig into those words being tossed around it always winds up a defense mechanism for someones reaction to anothers perceived douchebagish behavior.
Now lets be adults about this.
I've been working on my googlejitsu (GJJ) and I know what kind of events inspire threads like these.
1.The term keyboard warrior is retarded in a hobby/lifestyle forum. You can say that when talking about MMA, but get this. People who talk about grappling usually grapple. I Loooooove the irony that the people who make accusations of keyboard warriorisms are often less experienced in the sport being discussed than the person they are accusing.
2. BJJ is what it is because it police's itself. I said it before, and I will always say it. People turn to BJJ eventually because it's consistancy in quality. There is a reason why people with a MA background don't say "you know what, I really need to see what that Tang Su Do stuff is all about." That's because Karate, TKD, Krav, JJJ, all could have very good gyms, but unlike BJJ the chances of finding (what people generally consider) inadequate is large. BJJ doesn't have this problem because we have the so called BJJ police. ie; the people who point out bullshit they see. I double dare anyone here to point to a BJJ policing incidence where a person was truly forthcoming and didn't have their issue resolved almost immediately. It doesn't happen. If you are getting and maintaining heat from the public, you are doing something wrong period
3. Haterism. I dont want to get to far into it, but I will just repeat people who use the term "hater" are (again) just trying to justify their own douchebag mannerisms. Look at Kanye West as an example. Contrary to belief people you can actually be successful at something without making enemies.
i really like your posts in this thread..... btw i completely agree with the above...
i have been to many (4) different b/gjj schools and the criteria is all over the board but one thing is for sure...the mat dont lie.....
i have been blessed to be soooo close to the "source" that im spoiled i guess.
i really like your posts in this thread..... btw i completely agree with the above...
i have been to many (4) different b/gjj schools and the criteria is all over the board but one thing is for sure...the mat dont lie.....
i have been blessed to be soooo close to the "source" that im spoiled i guess.
Go to any Judo club anyware in the world and you will be taught the same techniques. I cant think of any martial art that is like that across the board. Lets hope BJJ doesnt go down the same path of stagnation (im sure it wont).
zaxonortesus
01-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Well. since we are knee deep in it, I will ask the question that I have wanted to ask for a long time.
Keyboard Warrior
BJJ Police
Hater
Those words. What do they mean? Everytime I really dig into those words being tossed around it always winds up a defense mechanism for someones reaction to anothers perceived douchebagish behavior.
...
Agreed, which is why I tend to not throw around terms like these much at all. But I'll give a go as to what I think of when I read these words.
Keyboard Warrior: Someone who may or may not practice what they are preaching in real life, but are very forthcoming with their (usually negative) opinion on the internet. But when the circumstances arise that would permit them from stepping out from behind the keyboard and taking a real look at what it is they are criticizing, they won't. See also, e-thugging.
Hater: See above, but it is independent of the computer. You can hate on the style of a competing gym in your town. They usually refuse to see the truth, even when it's in their face. Example, two competing gyms that hate on each other, one is consistently better than the other in comps but the losing gym won't cede that the other my be a more superior program. That's hating.
BJJ police: A necessary evil of our sport. The self policing is what keeps people honest. The questioning of backgrounds, lineages, techniques, etc is what keeps our sport from going the way of most others. But just like with any policing force, there will be the bad apples, those that border on hate. Also, as people wax and wane in the sport, the most prominent people will continually be looked at. So while one entity "The BJJ Police" may criticize the same people over and over, it's usually a different force each time with no connection to past flag raisers. If it's the same "BJJ Policeman" over and over, well, then you have a hater who very well may be a keyboard warrior and not a self policing force for the greater good.
Really, just my .02. Take it for what it is.
slideyfoot
01-16-2011, 04:13 PM
Great post from Razor's Edge, yet again.
There are a lot of people in BJJ who came to it after training in something else: looking around the various clubs I've trained (I'm currently at my eighth), the average age people start is probably somewhere between 25-30. As a result, a lot of people in BJJ have also seen how other martial arts have been watered down and commercialised (making money isn't a bad thing, unless it becomes the sole reason you're teaching), until any good schools left are swamped by the sheer number of clubs teaching sub-standard crap.
The whole 'BJJ police' thing came about - as far as I can tell - due to those people attempting to prevent the same thing happening to their new choice of martial art. Hopefully BJJ can learn from the mistakes of other styles and protect its standards.
As to 'keyboard warrior' and especially 'hater', I only ever see those terms thrown out when somebody hasn't got any real, credible defence to offer. In BJJ terms, it is easy to prove yourself: put up a competition video and/or a legitimate lineage.
Having said that, the second marker has become a bit blurred in more recent times, as legitimate instructors aren't always careful about who they give belts/affiliations to. Brandon Quick is one obvious example, and judging by the massive thread over on The Underground, Matt Barvo was almost another one (he was trying to legitimise his highly dubious black belt by convincing Leandro Vieira from Checkmat to make him an affiliate).
SavageKitsune
01-16-2011, 05:54 PM
Some people just like to argue. I do. A good debate is just another type of spar.
There is a line, though. Some people truly view themselves as some kind of online avenging angel burdened with the geas of rooting out and passing judgement upon those they view as pretenders. I am convinced that- like many bullies- this behavior is rooted in their own insecurity.
slideyfoot
01-16-2011, 06:04 PM
There is a line, though. Some people truly view themselves as some kind of online avenging angel burdened with the geas of rooting out and passing judgement upon those they view as pretenders. I am convinced that- like many bullies- this behavior is rooted in their own insecurity.
Depends on whether it is justified or not. Generally in the case of the 'BJJ police', people only get picked on when they refuse to answer the simple question "who gave you your belt?" I've seen at least a couple of threads where someone has made a false accusation, and it has ended pretty quickly: a legitimate instructor can easily defend their credibility.
To me, Bjj Police, Hater and Keyboard Warrior are like LOL, WTF and Twitter. Until recently, they were terms I had never heard before. Other than WTF, which I kind of like, they seem like a pain in the ass.
Ari Bolden
01-16-2011, 11:16 PM
To me, Bjj Police, Hater and Keyboard Warrior are like LOL, WTF and Twitter. Until recently, they were terms I had never heard before. Other than WTF, which I kind of like, they seem like a pain in the ass.
Are you running for President anytime soon sir?
SavageKitsune
01-16-2011, 11:24 PM
Depends on whether it is justified or not. Generally in the case of the 'BJJ police', people only get picked on when they refuse to answer the simple question "who gave you your belt?" I've seen at least a couple of threads where someone has made a false accusation, and it has ended pretty quickly: a legitimate instructor can easily defend their credibility.
What constitutes "justified"?
On other martial arts forums, I have had people challenge me aggressively just for posting an opinion that they did not agree with (and I was always careful to state that the opinion in question was nothing more or less than *MY* experience/view, not THE ONE TRUE WAY). The assertion (usually in a dramatic and rude manner) that I didn't know what I was talking about would be followed by a demand for my creds. Once I saw how things were, I declined to provide school/teacher names- because I chose to not put my teachers' names up for them to trash the way they trash each other and me. (I stated openly and repeatedly that I was a beginner/low-intermediate level student, and how many years I'd been training.... I wasn't trying to pass myself off as any kind of expert in anything.) Of course, declining to cough up your bona fides for investigation/verification means that you are a fraud. :rolleyes:
They obviously think they are "justified" in these witch hunts on the basis that I had the nerve to post an opinion or to respond to a newbie question with a description of how *my* school does XYZ. I was mindboggled, because really, who gives a fart in a high wind???? Unless you're telling the newbies to improve their chi by drinking battery acid- or something equally insane and dangerous- I don't grok the mindset of viciously attacking people and demanding to verify their lineage because they said something you differ with. Debate with them, sure- on the topic at hand- but some people persue this "exposing posers" and "clearing up bullshit" on the internet with a fanatical religious fervor that is quite astonishing. One has to conclude that this is the most gripping thing that these people have going on in their lives.
This has turned into a really great thread. I didn't think it would get this much buzz.
Honestly, I think everyone to an extent is a keyboard warrior because we have no idea how good each other is until we have rolled with each other. Granted, I am not on here saying "I'll kick your ass Otto" or "I could tap you out Dan" or "Ari is a big puss" but we talk shop like we are equals and with no ranking in mind.... but how we take the "talk" and store it is how we become Keyboard Warriors. If I have no respect for Ed for instance, I could skip over his posts, read and laugh in the privacy of home or I could throw it out of my mind as useless. I don't do any of that but how we judge each others input privately is a form of being a keyboard warrior
slideyfoot
01-17-2011, 03:28 AM
What constitutes "justified"?
Whenever somebody is claiming a belt they haven't earned (and therefore don't have the skill that comes with it), then use it as credibility to teach others. That means that not only is their rank fake, but they are passing that on to innocent beginners who don't know any better: they don't realise whatever belt they get from these people is going to be worthless. Fake black belts (or indeed brown belts) are also ripping off their students, who think they're paying for high level instruction.
For example, Matt Barvo (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=95870), Mickey Choi (http://www.bjj-asia.com/2008/12/mickey-choi-revised-profile.html), Khristian Geraci (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67136), Chris Van Valkenburg (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=70209), Brandon Quick (I'm sure everyone is already familiar with that one) etc.
I'm well aware of folks self promoting themselves for business reasons in a dojo. Seen it a lot over the years. Easy to do in some non-traditional modern karate schools. The structure of the dojo, the way classes are run, the sparring (I use that term loosely) and, in some cases, the lack of any other karate place nearby, make it easy to pull in “customers”.
I find that changing, though. BJJ has changed everything in the Martial Arts world. I make this next statement with a lot of certainty - There is not a karate dojo in America that isn't at least aware of “grappling” anymore. A lot of them are incorporating it into their training. I find this a very positive thing.
Martial Arts, as I know it (and only as I know it) has gone through some changes over the years. Certain fads (for lack of a better term) came on like gangbusters. First was the Bruce Lee era, when everyone wanted to make those fantastic noises and knock down big guys with one inch punches. Then the TV show, Kung Fu came out. Christ, people were beating down the doors to join dojos. Everyone wanted to be David Carridine and spout cool like blind Master Po.
Then was the Korean invasion. Tae-Kwon-Do was everywhere. At least here on the east coast. People were signing up in droves because everyone wanted to kick like the Rockettes.
Then came the “self defense” era of the eighties, along with the big padded suits that came with it. Everyone, especially women, wanted to elbow smash the big padded guy with the giant, gray, duct tape head.
Krav Magda was hot for a while. Everyone calling a dojo wanted to know if we were Krav-o-licious.
Then came the first UFC and the whole fricken world changed. (Thank God) The popularity of Jiu-jitsu in this country has done more good for Martial Arts than anything I've ever seen.
I've always found Jiu-jitsu far more visceral than Karate. You can't fake it in a roll. I was surprised when I learned there were rank legitimacy questions in some Jits circles. Not because the frailties of man will ever surprise me, I just didn't think you could fake any part of Jiu-jitsu. (Not the mechanics, just the rank thing)
Karate is different. We don't really need to put on a belt we haven't been legitimately awarded. We just hang around a bit more, bow when we're supposed to, and get promoted to a new color, or a new fancy stripe. Karate guys love to promote other karate guys. Especially, after they get promoted themselves. Of course, I'm not talking about us “Old School Karate” guys. We just get fat and talk a lot.
I occasionally train with a lot of different people. Most of us are older. Most of the guys I train under don't wear belts. I honestly couldn't tell you what rank they are, can't remember the last time anyone mentioned it. It's kind of like mentioning your yearly salary. You just don't do it much, not even at work. Nobody cares.
P.S. Ryan, I think we all talk as equals, because we are. We all have a love of dojo. I don't think much else matters.
And...I'll bet you could kick my ass in a heartbeat. But I'll tell you what, I'll bet I could teach you how to do it easier.
And, without mussing your hair. :)
batsugan
01-17-2011, 07:27 AM
I for one like the idea of the BJJ Police. I am like most everyone, I work hard for my money. I work(ed) hard for all ranks that I have been rewarded with. It is a slap in the face to my rank and my instructors that a fraud will take money from people to teach what he doesnt know. As for the BJJ police being keyboard warriors, so what. I say I don't care who exposes a fraud as long as it sees the light. If an instructor is charging fees for being a certain rank, than he better damn well be that rank. We all pay for our instruction, so why is martial arts any different than any other investment. Due dilligence when it comes to money isn't just our right, it is our responsibility. I will even go a step further and say that those that are subject to ridicule from the BJJ police have brought it on themselves. When a claim is made in public, it will be scrutinized. In this day and age, it will take very little time to find out whatever you want to know about a person, so why lie about rank when you know that the truth will come out. For those that don't like the BJJ police remember they are just the messengers.You may not like the way that they go about their business, but they serve a very useful, but sadly a necessary purpose.
Razors Edge
01-17-2011, 10:49 AM
What constitutes "justified"?
On other martial arts forums, I have had people challenge me aggressively just for posting an opinion that they did not agree with (and I was always careful to state that the opinion in question was nothing more or less than *MY* experience/view, not THE ONE TRUE WAY). The assertion (usually in a dramatic and rude manner) that I didn't know what I was talking about would be followed by a demand for my creds. Once I saw how things were, I declined to provide school/teacher names- because I chose to not put my teachers' names up for them to trash the way they trash each other and me. (I stated openly and repeatedly that I was a beginner/low-intermediate level student, and how many years I'd been training.... I wasn't trying to pass myself off as any kind of expert in anything.) Of course, declining to cough up your bona fides for investigation/verification means that you are a fraud. :rolleyes:
They obviously think they are "justified" in these witch hunts on the basis that I had the nerve to post an opinion or to respond to a newbie question with a description of how *my* school does XYZ. I was mindboggled, because really, who gives a fart in a high wind???? Unless you're telling the newbies to improve their chi by drinking battery acid- or something equally insane and dangerous- I don't grok the mindset of viciously attacking people and demanding to verify their lineage because they said something you differ with. Debate with them, sure- on the topic at hand- but some people persue this "exposing posers" and "clearing up bullshit" on the internet with a fanatical religious fervor that is quite astonishing. One has to conclude that this is the most gripping thing that these people have going on in their lives.
I understand the rationale of not wanting to put your name and school on the internet. I dont. but information is needed for context usually.
For example
someone will post "collar chokes from guard dont work on big people."
You need context.
What if a white belt is saying it? It could mean they need more practice.
What if a 10th planet blue is saying it? They might not have much experience with the gi.
If you can't talk about the underlying mechanics of why something is or is not a good idea in grappling matches than it is always good to know rank because than you know the likelihood of someone knowing what they are talking about even if they cant articulate it. I know plenty of black belts in bjj who just dont communicate well online, but they definitely know their stuff and should at least be considered even if they dont go into a detail in a post. Someone without a higher ranking cant afford not to explain their specific problems with a situation online because there is no way of knowing how skilled they are.
Note that I use rank as opposed to experience, because plenty of people can grapple in clubs for years but improve slowly because of lack of focused instruction. A person with 10 years of experience might not be as good as a talented blue belt.
This isn't a big deal though. It's not an elitism thing. It's a time thing. If someone shuts you down in conversation all you have to do is put the hours in. Eventually your say will be equal to theirs. No different than a young kid having an argument with an adult. When that kid is 30 and the adult is 40 THAN the "kid" can say whether or not they were right all those years ago.
cuzz63
01-17-2011, 09:22 PM
This thread has been making progress. The internet has become part of our lives like it or not. I can tell you many times I have come across some shady school or Martial Artists and pre-internet you really couldnt say much, now with the power of information we can look up people and research claims and see if the actually have merit. I personally have had people come to me and make claims about non-existent ranks in BJJ and mostly I pulled them aside and told them they were full of shit, but those people I did that too werent trying to open schools and take other money they were just trying pump up their lives. If some body tried to open a school locally with fake credentials you bet I would be all over them.
Ari Bolden
01-17-2011, 10:52 PM
I also suppose there is a fine line between BJJ Police and BJJ Gestapo.
Razors Edge
01-18-2011, 01:37 AM
I also suppose there is a fine line between BJJ Police and BJJ Gestapo.
Again, I've never encountered any. I would need examples because I still dont know any situation where the police/gestapo have persisted once things have been clarified.
It reminds me of that Simpson's episode where Homer got his hand caught in the vending machine. He was about to let them cut off his arm because he didn't realize all he had to do was let go of the coke can.
Ari Bolden
01-18-2011, 07:50 AM
Razor
I suppose I should clarify. As I have noted before, anyone can wear a BJJ badge and as such, pursue any type of agenda they may have. The Police (let's assume this is not a pejorative term) does things by the numbers in a logical, non emotive way. Then members of the Gestapo come in (internet trolls, kids, those with an axe to grind etc) add to the discussion, pull it off topic or add noise to the matter. Soon, a discussion, has been pulled off topic or a game of telephone has occurred. The end result is a mixture of "justice and vengeance". The end result can many times be muddy.
I suppose we are all "police" in some way. It all depends on what lengths we go to "protect" the art. For example, you are at coffee and get into a discussion with a kung fu guy. He begins to berate the art of jiu jitsu. He makes sweeping generalizations about the art. He says "its only a grappling art." He says "BJJ guys are all sport." You know the conversation. You more than likely will defend the art in which you love and have a little talk in order to set the record straight. You may or may not be interested in changing this person's mind, but you feel you must say something.
Then again, you may not.
I just read an interesting article on GracieMag about the "BJJ Police" policing the the Gracie System. How some Police have berated how the Gracie Combatives program is run at Torrence. I believe the article was called BJJ vs GJJ.
I learned long ago that you can't please all the people all the time. I have certainly learned from my past mistakes.I have also learned that there are also times you should remain steadfast in your convictions. Dunno....my 2 cents at this early morning.
Tallsilkyslim
01-19-2011, 11:10 AM
Well. since we are knee deep in it, I will ask the question that I have wanted to ask for a long time.
Keyboard Warrior
BJJ Police
Hater
Those words. What do they mean? Everytime I really dig into those words being tossed around it always winds up a defense mechanism for someones reaction to anothers perceived douchebagish behavior.
Now lets be adults about this.
I've been working on my googlejitsu (GJJ) and I know what kind of events inspire threads like these.
1.The term keyboard warrior is retarded in a hobby/lifestyle forum. You can say that when talking about MMA, but get this. People who talk about grappling usually grapple. I Loooooove the irony that the people who make accusations of keyboard warriorisms are often less experienced in the sport being discussed than the person they are accusing.
2. BJJ is what it is because it police's itself. I said it before, and I will always say it. People turn to BJJ eventually because it's consistancy in quality. There is a reason why people with a MA background don't say "you know what, I really need to see what that Tang Su Do stuff is all about." That's because Karate, TKD, Krav, JJJ, all could have very good gyms, but unlike BJJ the chances of finding (what people generally consider) inadequate is large. BJJ doesn't have this problem because we have the so called BJJ police. ie; the people who point out bullshit they see. I double dare anyone here to point to a BJJ policing incidence where a person was truly forthcoming and didn't have their issue resolved almost immediately. It doesn't happen. If you are getting and maintaining heat from the public, you are doing something wrong period
3. Haterism. I dont want to get to far into it, but I will just repeat people who use the term "hater" are (again) just trying to justify their own douchebag mannerisms. Look at Kanye West as an example. Contrary to belief people you can actually be successful at something without making enemies.
I have to respectfully disagree. I would like you to list some names of famous athletes, actors, and martial art practitioners that you feel are completely legit and earned everything they have. And then we can start the clock on how fast I can find people on the internet talking crap about them. Rickson, Fedor, the President of the United States. So long as there is the internet, there will be haters. I challenge you to prove me wrong. :)
slideyfoot
01-19-2011, 11:35 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. I would like you to list some names of famous athletes, actors, and martial art practitioners that you feel are completely legit and earned everything they have. And then we can start the clock on how fast I can find people on the internet talking crap about them.
I doubt there is anybody who doesn't have any enemies at all: it is pretty much impossible to get everybody to like you. However, there are plenty of people in BJJ who are widely respected and have a good reputation with almost everyone. For example, Marcelo Garcia, Renzo Gracie, Saulo Ribeiro.
So long as there is the internet, there will be hatersI'm with Razors Edge on this one: 'hater' tends to be a term people devoid of any counter-arguments throw out to describe anybody that criticises them. It isn't useful (well, unless you're someone who has no evidence to support their position, I guess).
sodaghost
01-19-2011, 11:14 PM
Let's not get things turned around, guys.
A hater is someone who hates something without being able to supply a good reason AND/OR won't admit the validity of other viewpoints, instead grouping defenders under the same umbrella as the thing hated.
If you think everyone who uses it is automatically covering up their own lack of substance...you're probably that guy. :)
Razors Edge
01-19-2011, 11:48 PM
Let's not get things turned around, guys.
A hater is someone who hates something without being able to supply a good reason AND/OR won't admit the validity of other viewpoints, instead grouping defenders under the same umbrella as the thing hated.
If you think everyone who uses it is automatically covering up their own lack of substance...you're probably that guy. :)
Okay, I think people who use the term "haters" are people who are trying to avoid a rational discussion.
You are saying that people who believe that the word haters are haters too?
So that means that I am a hater because I dont like the term hater? Is that what you mean?
Razors Edge
01-20-2011, 12:04 AM
I have to respectfully disagree. I would like you to list some names of famous athletes, actors, and martial art practitioners that you feel are completely legit and earned everything they have. And then we can start the clock on how fast I can find people on the internet talking crap about them. Rickson, Fedor, the President of the United States. So long as there is the internet, there will be haters. I challenge you to prove me wrong. :)
Okay, lets take politicians out of the equation since by the nature of their job they are going to be generally disliked by at the very least 30 percent of the populace.
Lets stick with athletes. While most athletes have someone who dislikes them all successful athletes have their success acknowledged by their peers. A lot of golfers dont like Tiger woods as a person but none of them say he is trash. The best you can hope to find is "overrated" and that doesnt even mean much.
You have exceptions like Barry Bonds, but his steroid use is a legitimate concern so when I say "people dont catch heat if they do nothing wrong." steroids and how Bonds dealt with the allegation would be "the thing he did wrong." I have no problem with him but the heat was justified.
Than you have Muhamed Ali who is looked at as one of the greatest boxers of all times by all except maybe Joe Frazier and Joes "hate" comes from all the trash Ali threw his way. Once again the source of the hate is clear and everyone can understand why it is there.
Now lets get into grappling. All the top level grapplers are respected, even by rival teams. Rorion has done some shady things to his family members. None of his peers say his jiu jitsu sucks. Ralph Gracie assaulted his own students, and his students still say he is knowleadgeable. Ricco Rodriguez has a pretty bad attitude on the mat but everyone acknowledges that he has skill despite his physique problems he had in the past. They might not be liked personally, but their skill is acknowledged and their are no BJJ police. No witch hunts. No torches, no pitchforks. If you have skill people leave you alone.
I stand by what I say. You dont keep heat in this sport/MA/whatever unless you are in the wrong somehow. The question people like Brandon Quick have to ask is does the risk of letting everyone know he was never what he said he was worth the reward of running his business with no lies hanging over his head? The answer is usually "no." Fortunately Eddie Bravo didn't give Brandon the option of lying about credentials. I guess that's what happens when you bicker over videos.
Might pertain to this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Razors Edge
01-20-2011, 09:18 AM
Might pertain to this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Ah. My old friend cognitive disonance. :o The irony of syndromes like Dunning Krugers is that by it's nature, you can understand DK and analyze DK, yet be a victim of DK and not see it.
Typically DK is a mental safety mechanism. In other words, if their is a person who can not deal with the concept of failure than they will use DK to shield themselves from that possibility.
Believe it or not, what I am referring to in this thread is different.
The people I am referring to are making a very concious effort (concious is the key word here) to fool the public. They are not lying to themselves. They know what they are. They are lying to others. And that's the real shame. I dont mind those idiots who go on Myspace and say they have a BJJ black belt from Rardon Gracie. Those fools are just crazy. That's cool. When you have a guy like Mickey Choi make calculated efforts to fool the public we have a problem.
Again, if the BJJ police weren't around we would have that guy opening schools and running seminars all over Korea and California as a blue belt. All that WHILE bashing guys like John Frankl. A very very legit BJJ black belt in Seoul.
Tallsilkyslim
01-20-2011, 04:21 PM
Ah. My old friend cognitive disonance. :o The irony of syndromes like Dunning Krugers is that by it's nature, you can understand DK and analyze DK, yet be a victim of DK and not see it.
Typically DK is a mental safety mechanism. In other words, if their is a person who can not deal with the concept of failure than they will use DK to shield themselves from that possibility.
Believe it or not, what I am referring to in this thread is different.
The people I am referring to are making a very concious effort (concious is the key word here) to fool the public. They are not lying to themselves. They know what they are. They are lying to others. And that's the real shame. I dont mind those idiots who go on Myspace and say they have a BJJ black belt from Rardon Gracie. Those fools are just crazy. That's cool. When you have a guy like Mickey Choi make calculated efforts to fool the public we have a problem.
Again, if the BJJ police weren't around we would have that guy opening schools and running seminars all over Korea and California as a blue belt. All that WHILE bashing guys like John Frankl. A very very legit BJJ black belt in Seoul.
:p :p
I'm not ever signing up with a guy named Rardon no way.
Belts just interest me. To me they are like college degrees/diplomas/certification. Marketability goes a long way. People don't want to learn Jiu Jitsu from Ben Stein. They want to learn it from someone who they feel is both interesting and a good leader. Someone with charisma and selflessness that can build people up. So because of this, the people that have the degrees get mad because someone whom they feel hasn't worked as hard as them or isn't as deserving is getting paid the big bucks and they aren't. A lot of people say the BJJ police have their place, and that is to protect the art. But is the so called protection of the art really just a way to mask their jealousy that someone is making more money than them that they feel doesn't deserve it? To me, that would make one, a hater.
Lastly, if I offended anyone in this post I am sorry I really just want a fun discussion and I REALLY just enjoy hearing what you all have to say.
Razors Edge
01-20-2011, 09:23 PM
:p :p
I'm not ever signing up with a guy named Rardon no way.
Belts just interest me. To me they are like college degrees/diplomas/certification. Marketability goes a long way. People don't want to learn Jiu Jitsu from Ben Stein. They want to learn it from someone who they feel is both interesting and a good leader. Someone with charisma and selflessness that can build people up. So because of this, the people that have the degrees get mad because someone whom they feel hasn't worked as hard as them or isn't as deserving is getting paid the big bucks and they aren't. A lot of people say the BJJ police have their place, and that is to protect the art. But is the so called protection of the art really just a way to mask their jealousy that someone is making more money than them that they feel doesn't deserve it? To me, that would make one, a hater.
Lastly, if I offended anyone in this post I am sorry I really just want a fun discussion and I REALLY just enjoy hearing what you all have to say.
I dont think I have ever read anything offensive on this board. I think it's impossible to offend me unless you do something face to face.
Is the protection of the art a way of masking jealosy? An overwhelming no. Again, John Frankl was not jealous of Mickey Choi. Mickey Choi didn't no jiu jitsu. He knew the steps to an armbar, and the steps to a triangle choke. He could show them to students and he could do it in Korean, but the guy couldn't roll. Mickey Choi decided that normal
BJJ standards were too high and he promoted himself.
Now, if you think BJJ standards are too high, than promoting yourself is no problem. Just call your art something different. Eddie Bravo did. Randy Couture's grappling teacher (Neil Melanson) did, etc. Just dont call it BJJ.
"BJJ Police" do not get mad when lower belts get popular. There are browns, purples and blues, making videos all the time and they rarely get negative comments. A lot of them are regularly posted on other grappling sites. Not a negative word. Why is that?
Ryan Hall has been making instructionals since he was a blue belt. No jealous haters from him. Worst he gets is "he talks too fast." Why is that?
C'mon, you really don't think it is something as easy as jealousy do you?:p
Maybe the BJJ police/gestapo are on to something.:confused:
Do you think it's possible?
Changing topics a bit. You say belts interest you. If a person rarely competes (Not saying its you. Just Hypothetically) can you explain why a colored belt is even neccessary? To me, anyway you slice it, it comes down to ego. You want to tell your friends and strangers your level of toughness in a MA that has a lot of respect. I'm referring to the people who stand up hard for the Gracie Combatives and other "long distance courses", etc.
cuzz63
01-21-2011, 01:00 AM
Now, if you think BJJ standards are too high, than promoting yourself is no problem. Just call your art something different. Eddie Bravo did. Randy Couture's grappling teacher (Neil Melanson) did, etc. Just dont call it BJJ.
Great post but this part makes it sound like Eddie Bravo and Neil Melanson think BJJ standards are too high and promoted themselves.
Tallsilkyslim
01-21-2011, 11:19 AM
I dont think I have ever read anything offensive on this board. I think it's impossible to offend me unless you do something face to face.
Is the protection of the art a way of masking jealosy? An overwhelming no. Again, John Frankl was not jealous of Mickey Choi. Mickey Choi didn't no jiu jitsu. He knew the steps to an armbar, and the steps to a triangle choke. He could show them to students and he could do it in Korean, but the guy couldn't roll. Mickey Choi decided that normal
BJJ standards were too high and he promoted himself.
Now, if you think BJJ standards are too high, than promoting yourself is no problem. Just call your art something different. Eddie Bravo did. Randy Couture's grappling teacher (Neil Melanson) did, etc. Just dont call it BJJ.
"BJJ Police" do not get mad when lower belts get popular. There are browns, purples and blues, making videos all the time and they rarely get negative comments. A lot of them are regularly posted on other grappling sites. Not a negative word. Why is that?
Ryan Hall has been making instructionals since he was a blue belt. No jealous haters from him. Worst he gets is "he talks too fast." Why is that?
C'mon, you really don't think it is something as easy as jealousy do you?:p
Maybe the BJJ police/gestapo are on to something.:confused:
Do you think it's possible?
Changing topics a bit. You say belts interest you. If a person rarely competes (Not saying its you. Just Hypothetically) can you explain why a colored belt is even neccessary? To me, anyway you slice it, it comes down to ego. You want to tell your friends and strangers your level of toughness in a MA that has a lot of respect. I'm referring to the people who stand up hard for the Gracie Combatives and other "long distance courses", etc.
From my own personal experience, if people ask you about your rank, and you are honest with them, and you invite them to roll with you and see for themselves, I have never encountered a problem. What you are forgetting is that rank means more to people entering the sport than people that actually do martial arts. The most common question I get asked by newbs is "Are you a black belt?" For the common folk, it symbolizes legitimacy. But I believe time and application in real life is just as legit.
Great post but this part makes it sound like Eddie Bravo and Neil Melanson think BJJ standards are too high and promoted themselves.
I was thinking the same thing. Eddie IS a black belt in BJJ. I am sure that is why he is so good. ;) :rolleyes:
zaxonortesus
01-21-2011, 11:38 AM
Changing topics a bit. You say belts interest you. If a person rarely competes (Not saying its you. Just Hypothetically) can you explain why a colored belt is even neccessary? To me, anyway you slice it, it comes down to ego. You want to tell your friends and strangers your level of toughness in a MA that has a lot of respect. I'm referring to the people who stand up hard for the Gracie Combatives and other "long distance courses", etc.
To me it's a matter of goals. I don't compete as often as I should, but because I think I am partially made of glass, I compete as often as I can. I have a goal of eventually getting a BJJ black belt so my more near-term goal is a blue belt. Also, just because one doesn't compete very often doesn't mean that he isn't training often nor occasionally training at other gyms. If you are giving blue belts at other gyms and your own gym a hard time and displaying skills at that level, why wouldn't you want to be promoted? Competition is a big part of the sport, but it's not the only part of the sport. This is coming from a dirty white belt who has been training for going on three years now (two at my current gym). It really in no way has anything to do with my ego on the street. If someone asked me what belt I was and they have no idea what BJJ belts even are, I could tell them I'm a gold belt for all they care, they don't understand the significance behind the rank. Now, to kind of shoot my own logic in the foot, I kind of like being a dirty white belt, no pressure, no target, I can just go train and don't get singled out like some of the advanced belts do when they roll with the lower guys.
cuzz63
01-21-2011, 03:04 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Eddie IS a black belt in BJJ. I am sure that is why he is so good. ;) :rolleyes:
Neil is also a BJJ Black Belt.
slideyfoot
01-21-2011, 03:30 PM
Neil is also a BJJ Black Belt.
Are you sure about that? According to the man himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyHk03T0tBM#t=3m15s), he got his black belt from Karo Parisyan, who is under Gene LeBell and Gokor. All excellent grapplers, but not BJJ.
Razors Edge
01-22-2011, 02:07 AM
To me it's a matter of goals. I don't compete as often as I should, but because I think I am partially made of glass, I compete as often as I can. I have a goal of eventually getting a BJJ black belt so my more near-term goal is a blue belt. Also, just because one doesn't compete very often doesn't mean that he isn't training often nor occasionally training at other gyms. If you are giving blue belts at other gyms and your own gym a hard time and displaying skills at that level, why wouldn't you want to be promoted? Competition is a big part of the sport, but it's not the only part of the sport. This is coming from a dirty white belt who has been training for going on three years now (two at my current gym). It really in no way has anything to do with my ego on the street. If someone asked me what belt I was and they have no idea what BJJ belts even are, I could tell them I'm a gold belt for all they care, they don't understand the significance behind the rank. Now, to kind of shoot my own logic in the foot, I kind of like being a dirty white belt, no pressure, no target, I can just go train and don't get singled out like some of the advanced belts do when they roll with the lower guys.
Personally I dont think someone should have to win a competition to get promoted. Hell, they can be smoked everytime they go out there for all I care. IMO competition shows you what you really are inside. It really does. You dont know how much you do or dont have until you step on a mat in competition. It really is a good sign of self defense ability.
Can you beat a stranger your size and level? Someone whose game you dont know and who doesnt know yours. Someone who has his adrenaline pumping because he is as scared as you are. Can you do your star move that you get on everyone in your gym? Did it fail? Why?
Even if the dude takes you down into guard and holds on to play for points for 6 minutes and wins 2 to zero after you try everything under the sun. That is still a failure in self defense.
Just my opinion.
Again I ask, why does the belt matter. If your instructor gave you a blue belt tomorrow would that mean you are a blue belt on that day or were you a blue belt the week before? what if he gave you a purple or you negotiated for stripes? What would that mean? Saulo Ribeiro made a great statement in his book Jiu Jitsu University. Basically receiving a belt is confirmation of what you already know. In other words if you have a particular level of skill you shouldnt need to be given a belt. You know exactly what you are and being comfortable never getting one, to me, is a sign of internal contentment. If you roll with many people and you actively self-analyze yourself than the belt is irrelevant. It's just a pat on the back at best and a bullseye for your rivals at worst.
That's why I dont understand why people (people that I know personally, not on any of these forums) get so upset when a promotion doesn't come their way.
I'm gonna sound a little arrogant (and even hypocritical ;) ) now and say I think I am about ready to be promoted now. Most people in my gym agree but at the same time down deep I know I dont need one. Getting promoted wouldnt alter my training. If anything, getting promoted to soon would make someone much worse.
But I still want the belt. why? so I can say I have it. It's ego, but I dont care. I have an ego and I'm not ashamed to admitt it but Im just saying IMO thats all the belt is. It's most basic function is to appease the ego.
Razors Edge
01-22-2011, 02:21 AM
Great post but this part makes it sound like Eddie Bravo and Neil Melanson think BJJ standards are too high and promoted themselves.
Sorry, I didnt mean it to sound that way.
My point was that Eddie Bravo and Neil Melanson have both created their own system of grappling so their promotional standards can be anything they want it to be and I won't criticize them for it.
If I see a BJJ guy give another person a rank I think clearly doesn't make sense I will say something (even in person) because they are in the same martial arts family as I am and as such I think I have a right to an opinion because if they make BJJ look bad, than I look bad.
I take that seriously.
If 10th planet gives a guy a brown belt for completing a gracie combatives course and than looks bad in a tournament I wont care. Apparanetly 10th planet is not BJJ so it's not my problem.
For the record I dont think Bravo and Melansons development of their own system had anything to do with disagreeing with the current BJJ standards....which are wildly varied anyway.
In fact, I would say that Eddie has pretty high promotional standards most of the time.
cuzz63
01-22-2011, 04:59 AM
Are you sure about that? According to the man himself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyHk03T0tBM#t=3m15s), he got his black belt from Karo Parisyan, who is under Gene LeBell and Gokor. All excellent grapplers, but not BJJ.
My mistake, you are correct. I thought I read somewhere that he got his BlacK Belt in BJJ from someone and when I looked around I couldnt find anything about it.
slideyfoot
01-22-2011, 05:06 AM
My mistake, you are correct. I thought I read somewhere that he got his BlacK Belt in BJJ from someone and when I looked around I couldnt find anything about it.
There are a few sites that list him as giving Randy his "black belt in BJJ", when what they actually mean is that he gave him a black belt in Melanson's system, with lineage going back to LeBell. Hence the confusion: he hasn't done BJJ and doesn't train in the gi (as he says here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovS7X2ptIxM#t0m27s) and here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wbeuDs-fho#t0m52s)). From what I've seen he always pays his respects to BJJ though, which is nice.
Personally I dont think someone should have to win a competition to get promoted. Hell, they can be smoked everytime they go out there for all I care. IMO competition shows you what you really are inside. It really does. You dont know how much you do or dont have until you step on a mat in competition. It really is a good sign of self defense ability.
Can you beat a stranger your size and level? Someone whose game you dont know and who doesnt know yours. Someone who has his adrenaline pumping because he is as scared as you are. Can you do your star move that you get on everyone in your gym? Did it fail? Why?
Even if the dude takes you down into guard and holds on to play for points for 6 minutes and wins 2 to zero after you try everything under the sun. That is still a failure in self defense.
Just my opinion.
Again I ask, why does the belt matter. If your instructor gave you a blue belt tomorrow would that mean you are a blue belt on that day or were you a blue belt the week before? what if he gave you a purple or you negotiated for stripes? What would that mean? Saulo Ribeiro made a great statement in his book Jiu Jitsu University. Basically receiving a belt is confirmation of what you already know. In other words if you have a particular level of skill you shouldnt need to be given a belt. You know exactly what you are and being comfortable never getting one, to me, is a sign of internal contentment. If you roll with many people and you actively self-analyze yourself than the belt is irrelevant. It's just a pat on the back at best and a bullseye for your rivals at worst.
That's why I dont understand why people (people that I know personally, not on any of these forums) get so upset when a promotion doesn't come their way.
I'm gonna sound a little arrogant (and even hypocritical ;) ) now and say I think I am about ready to be promoted now. Most people in my gym agree but at the same time down deep I know I dont need one. Getting promoted wouldnt alter my training. If anything, getting promoted to soon would make someone much worse.
But I still want the belt. why? so I can say I have it. It's ego, but I dont care. I have an ego and I'm not ashamed to admitt it but Im just saying IMO thats all the belt is. It's most basic function is to appease the ego.
I think if an instructor tells you that in his dojo you are a white belt but you can grapple at a blue belt level at competition that most would be ok with that. I think when it comes to competition that we all like to have the best and that we don't want to sandbag to gain trophies. That is more of a dojo move than an individual want. Its like, if I am a white belt and am winning consistantly in tournaments I am eventually going to get bored competing. This is why a "tournament only" advancement would make sense. Like many of you have said..... "a white belt at my school is like a blue belt at your school" So, if an instructor truly feels that way then I think the next step in a students development should be a tournament only blue belt but white in the dojo.
Why do you get scared before a match? It is a competition, I can understand your first few matches but you should be over it after so many. IDK, maybe its just me.
Personally I dont think someone should have to win a competition to get promoted. Hell, they can be smoked everytime they go out there for all I care. IMO competition shows you what you really are inside. It really does. You dont know how much you do or dont have until you step on a mat in competition. It really is a good sign of self defense ability.
Can you beat a stranger your size and level? Someone whose game you dont know and who doesnt know yours. Someone who has his adrenaline pumping because he is as scared as you are. Can you do your star move that you get on everyone in your gym? Did it fail? Why?
Even if the dude takes you down into guard and holds on to play for points for 6 minutes and wins 2 to zero after you try everything under the sun. That is still a failure in self defense.
Just my opinion.
Again I ask, why does the belt matter. If your instructor gave you a blue belt tomorrow would that mean you are a blue belt on that day or were you a blue belt the week before? what if he gave you a purple or you negotiated for stripes? What would that mean? Saulo Ribeiro made a great statement in his book Jiu Jitsu University. Basically receiving a belt is confirmation of what you already know. In other words if you have a particular level of skill you shouldnt need to be given a belt. You know exactly what you are and being comfortable never getting one, to me, is a sign of internal contentment. If you roll with many people and you actively self-analyze yourself than the belt is irrelevant. It's just a pat on the back at best and a bullseye for your rivals at worst.
That's why I dont understand why people (people that I know personally, not on any of these forums) get so upset when a promotion doesn't come their way.
I'm gonna sound a little arrogant (and even hypocritical ;) ) now and say I think I am about ready to be promoted now. Most people in my gym agree but at the same time down deep I know I dont need one. Getting promoted wouldnt alter my training. If anything, getting promoted to soon would make someone much worse.
But I still want the belt. why? so I can say I have it. It's ego, but I dont care. I have an ego and I'm not ashamed to admitt it but Im just saying IMO thats all the belt is. It's most basic function is to appease the ego.
I hope you stay in the arts for a long, long time. I hope you go on to teach for many years. I think your attitude is what the arts have always had, and will always, need.
Razors Edge
01-22-2011, 09:05 AM
So, if an instructor truly feels that way then I think the next step in a students development should be a tournament only blue belt but white in the dojo.
Why do you get scared before a match? It is a competition, I can understand your first few matches but you should be over it after so many. IDK, maybe its just me.
If an instructor is actually telling his students to roll in blue belt tournaments while leaving him at white belt I think something is wrong.
Personally as a white belt I competed in blue belt and purple belt divisions and did well sometimes, but it was because I wanted to, not because my instructor told me to. This was way back before the IBJJF was heavily regulating entries.
As for competition mindset, I dont get scared. If you want to call it anything you can call it anxiousness, but I doubt you would be able to read it on my face. I am scared/anxious because I am going up against a stranger with several people watching and the competition actually means something to me. Competitions matter to me so my mindset changes. I dont think thats a strange situation.
You would think that as you get more experienced with competitions you would get less nervous but you gotta factor in that as your level improves so does the competition and often the prestige of the tournament.
That's why people gas so much more quickly in competitions. Competing is stressful, that's why I think you can recognize another angle on a persons level by analyzing them.
Tallsilkyslim
01-22-2011, 09:59 AM
Personally I dont think someone should have to win a competition to get promoted. Hell, they can be smoked everytime they go out there for all I care. IMO competition shows you what you really are inside. It really does. You dont know how much you do or dont have until you step on a mat in competition. It really is a good sign of self defense ability.
Can you beat a stranger your size and level? Someone whose game you dont know and who doesnt know yours. Someone who has his adrenaline pumping because he is as scared as you are. Can you do your star move that you get on everyone in your gym? Did it fail? Why?
Even if the dude takes you down into guard and holds on to play for points for 6 minutes and wins 2 to zero after you try everything under the sun. That is still a failure in self defense.
Just my opinion.
Again I ask, why does the belt matter. If your instructor gave you a blue belt tomorrow would that mean you are a blue belt on that day or were you a blue belt the week before? what if he gave you a purple or you negotiated for stripes? What would that mean? Saulo Ribeiro made a great statement in his book Jiu Jitsu University. Basically receiving a belt is confirmation of what you already know. In other words if you have a particular level of skill you shouldnt need to be given a belt. You know exactly what you are and being comfortable never getting one, to me, is a sign of internal contentment. If you roll with many people and you actively self-analyze yourself than the belt is irrelevant. It's just a pat on the back at best and a bullseye for your rivals at worst.
That's why I dont understand why people (people that I know personally, not on any of these forums) get so upset when a promotion doesn't come their way.
I'm gonna sound a little arrogant (and even hypocritical ;) ) now and say I think I am about ready to be promoted now. Most people in my gym agree but at the same time down deep I know I dont need one. Getting promoted wouldnt alter my training. If anything, getting promoted to soon would make someone much worse.
But I still want the belt. why? so I can say I have it. It's ego, but I dont care. I have an ego and I'm not ashamed to admitt it but Im just saying IMO thats all the belt is. It's most basic function is to appease the ego.
I personally don't think you can measure your "self defense" ability in a sport against someone who also does the sport. Sport does not equal street.
Sorry, I didnt mean it to sound that way.
My point was that Eddie Bravo and Neil Melanson have both created their own system of grappling so their promotional standards can be anything they want it to be and I won't criticize them for it.
If I see a BJJ guy give another person a rank I think clearly doesn't make sense I will say something (even in person) because they are in the same martial arts family as I am and as such I think I have a right to an opinion because if they make BJJ look bad, than I look bad.
I take that seriously.
If 10th planet gives a guy a brown belt for completing a gracie combatives course and than looks bad in a tournament I wont care. Apparanetly 10th planet is not BJJ so it's not my problem.
For the record I dont think Bravo and Melansons development of their own system had anything to do with disagreeing with the current BJJ standards....which are wildly varied anyway.
In fact, I would say that Eddie has pretty high promotional standards most of the time.
I think Eddie has the "highest" standards. ;)
slideyfoot
01-22-2011, 10:13 AM
I personally don't think you can measure your "self defense" ability in a sport against someone who also does the sport. Sport does not equal street.
No, but resistance is a useful approximation. Naturally it doesn't take into account the many other factors involved, like environment, legal ramifications, chemical levels (especially alcohol) etc, but it's the best we've got if you don't want to go into bars and dance people into fighting you. ;)
o4uq06fYl8U
I think Eddie has the "highest" standards. ;)According to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXOzddenOyk#t=3m33s), he certainly does. Not a good thing.
Razors Edge
01-22-2011, 10:19 AM
I personally don't think you can measure your "self defense" ability in a sport against someone who also does the sport. Sport does not equal street.
I dont think Self Defense can be measured accurately at all but I think someone who can handle the strain of a competition where someone has trained to use your moves against you and will use strength and adrenaline to do it. Is much better equiped to deal with an imaginary situation where you assume you are gonna be assaulted by a guy who doesn't know how to assault people.
I think Eddie has the "highest" standards. ;)
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.:D
[QUOTE=Razors Edge;104557]If an instructor is actually telling his students to roll in blue belt tournaments while leaving him at white belt I think something is wrong.
Personally as a white belt I competed in blue belt and purple belt divisions and did well sometimes, but it was because I wanted to, not because my instructor told me to. This was way back before the IBJJF was heavily regulating entries.
QUOTE]
If you are representing your school in a competition, don't you have to represent them in the belt division they allow you to grapple in?
What would be wrong with that scenario? If an instructor feels you are good enough competition-wise to compete at that level but the school standards are much higher... I just don't see why that is a problem. I think it is far worse to be a blue belt in the dojo but compete as a white belt
SavageKitsune
01-22-2011, 05:42 PM
What would be wrong with that scenario? If an instructor feels you are good enough competition-wise to compete at that level but the school standards are much higher... I just don't see why that is a problem.
One level up (white belt competing in blue) isn't such a big deal. Personally I'd be dismayed if I was a purple belt doing a comp and was challenged by a WHITE belt. It's an insult to the higher belt competitor.
There's no possible good ending there for me, either. If I beat her, it doesn't feel good or look good, because she was only a white belt. If she beat *ME*- horrors.
Years ago, underbelts were not allowed to make head contact in karate competitions. I can't explain this, I never could figure out the rationale behind “no head contact” in fighting. I guess it would be the equivalent of Jiu-jitsu competition with no submissions allowed.
Many of my underbelt students would ask to fight in the black belt division, and I'd give most of them the okay. They had never seen “no contact sparring” and they wanted to compete. None of them ever won, but many placed, and some just got smoked. They were not allowed to move down in division once they made that jump, nor ever let anyone know what their real rank was. None of them ever looked bad, didn't embarrass themselves or our school, and it was never disrespectful to the other fighters. Many of the other competitors knew about it, because they knew us, but nobody ever cared and there was never a problem.
I realize Karate competitions are easier than Jits competitions, I've competed in both, but the better division you fight in, the more skill you develop. Of course, you get to go home earlier, too, because a lot of times you get an ass whoopin. :)
zaxonortesus
01-23-2011, 07:27 AM
Personally I dont think someone should have to win a competition to get promoted. Hell, they can be smoked everytime they go out there for all I care. IMO competition shows you what you really are inside. It really does. You dont know how much you do or dont have until you step on a mat in competition. It really is a good sign of self defense ability.
Can you beat a stranger your size and level? Someone whose game you dont know and who doesnt know yours. Someone who has his adrenaline pumping because he is as scared as you are. Can you do your star move that you get on everyone in your gym? Did it fail? Why?
Even if the dude takes you down into guard and holds on to play for points for 6 minutes and wins 2 to zero after you try everything under the sun. That is still a failure in self defense.
Just my opinion.
Again I ask, why does the belt matter. If your instructor gave you a blue belt tomorrow would that mean you are a blue belt on that day or were you a blue belt the week before? what if he gave you a purple or you negotiated for stripes? What would that mean? Saulo Ribeiro made a great statement in his book Jiu Jitsu University. Basically receiving a belt is confirmation of what you already know. In other words if you have a particular level of skill you shouldnt need to be given a belt. You know exactly what you are and being comfortable never getting one, to me, is a sign of internal contentment. If you roll with many people and you actively self-analyze yourself than the belt is irrelevant. It's just a pat on the back at best and a bullseye for your rivals at worst.
That's why I dont understand why people (people that I know personally, not on any of these forums) get so upset when a promotion doesn't come their way.
I'm gonna sound a little arrogant (and even hypocritical ;) ) now and say I think I am about ready to be promoted now. Most people in my gym agree but at the same time down deep I know I dont need one. Getting promoted wouldnt alter my training. If anything, getting promoted to soon would make someone much worse.
But I still want the belt. why? so I can say I have it. It's ego, but I dont care. I have an ego and I'm not ashamed to admitt it but Im just saying IMO thats all the belt is. It's most basic function is to appease the ego.
Your points on competition are valid, and I've often said the same thing. Comps are nothing more than a measure of how you are progressing against the masses. Also, your points on why it matters or doesn't matter are are correct too, and that is kind of the point I'm trying to make. I know I am at that level, I know I am a blue belt level... personally, as it's my first belt in any MA, I need that confirmation that you mention. I don't know what that level really looks like, personally, as I've never been there. So I need that confirmation to tell me that yes, I'm there. I am internally full of contradiction. I don't need it on a personal level, I know where I stand and that's what matters. But on the level of goals, progression and knowing that I am right in my self vision, I do need it. And that is why belts do matter, maybe not to everyone in the same way, but they do matter.
In any school where there are belts, they indeed do matter. The only time they don't matter is once you have reached that next belt. When working hard, in a belt system, that next one is your goal. Once that belt, say blue, is achieved, you don't care about that blue, you strive to improve for the next one.
And, yes, our goal, is to improve and develop skill. But defining or articulating exactly what the details of that level of skill is, is extremely difficult to do. Hence - belt rank.
It's easy for old farts like me to say belts don't matter, for I am a miserable old fart. They matter to any student I train. As they should. Most of my students that say they don't matter - are full of baloney. Never seen any of them turn them down, or not wear it.
Tallsilkyslim
01-23-2011, 01:17 PM
I dont think Self Defense can be measured accurately at all but I think someone who can handle the strain of a competition where someone has trained to use your moves against you and will use strength and adrenaline to do it. Is much better equiped to deal with an imaginary situation where you assume you are gonna be assaulted by a guy who doesn't know how to assault people.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.:D
I personally hear very little about actual trained martial artists getting into fights. The most skilled people I know, carry with them the paradox of having a sharp sword and no use for it. So I actually think that most people you fight on the street aren't going to be anywhere near a blue belt level of BJJ.
Ari Bolden
01-23-2011, 02:14 PM
I personally hear very little about actual trained martial artists getting into fights. The most skilled people I know, carry with them the paradox of having a sharp sword and no use for it. So I actually think that most people you fight on the street aren't going to be anywhere near a blue belt level of BJJ.
As pointed out, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has grown in leaps and bounds but in the larger scale of things, the majority of people do not do it. Preston is correct in his assessment above. Average people are no where near a blue belt level in BJJ on the street. This isn't to say that their aren't tough, skilled street fighters out there (there are!), but the chances of facing someone of equal grappling skill on the street is not 'high'.
HOWEVER, you should never assume that the person you are fighting is less skilled than you. The beauty of self defense is that anything is fair game and 'dirty tricks' may be the difference of you ending on top.
Now, stepping onto the mat (sport competition) OBVIOUSLY changes this fact. You are entering a world where everyone is doing the same thing, so the measuring stick is different.
Gracie Combatives, love it or hate it, isn't geared for sport competition. It is geared towards 'self defence' classes. I am not talking about their online course, I am talking about the actually physical program the run at the Gracie HQ in Torrence. I've been there, seen it and even talked with Master Rorion about it.
My primary reasons for taking the martial arts is self defense first and foremost. The live rolling that BJJ brings with it is SUPER FUN and adds to my self defense game. My second reason for taking the martial arts is self development and what it does for me personally. Competition isn't MY personal priority. I've done it and will do it again. I will win some and lose some that is to be sure.
My point-you are taking BJJ (or Martial Arts) for your own reasons. You just have to be careful applying why you do it with why others are doing it.
Hadaka Jime
02-16-2011, 06:28 PM
Belt is nothing more then a color... BJ Penn wooped ass wearing a white one; as Paulo Fernando told me when I expressed my concern when moving to California this fall about delaying my dream of becoming a black belt
"The belt is a belt, when your out there competing the belt can't help you, I have seen white belts rush to get their blue belts and go out there and get choked and look over at their trainer... I bet then they'd think HEY BELT I'M GETTING CHOKED!!" the belt can't talk back to you, or talk for you... only your skill on the Mat can talk for you"
I couldn't agree more with him. I am content being a brown belt and am still working for the black belt... but it's no longer a matter of speed, but refinement of skill. At this point in my Jits career, I wouldn't want to receive a black belt if I didn't think I deserved it, and thankfully I have great trainers and coaches who would never give me a belt if they didn't truly believe I deserved or am ready for it.
I look at the 'BJJ Police' like kids in highschool, your going to be judged no matter what the fuck you do, so just like back then... I don't really give a shit what other people who are snobby and elitist think about me. I'm gonna be me, If you've got something legitimately constructive to help my game, I'll listen.. But if your going to say my belt is fraud because i got it 8 months faster than you, then you can fuck off... no one has the right to say you don't deserve a belt if you know that you worked your ass of to earn it. And even if they're the same belt, and can pummel you on the mat it doesn't mean your belt isn't legit (I mean there is exceptions of course.. a blackbelt in 3 month isn't going to happen, but crazy things Have happened there is plenty of fast learners or "prodigy's" out there)
all in all I'd say belt are too over-hyped in general by those in and outside of the martial arts communities, It's pushing us further away from passion and desire for our discipline, and more towards mindless competition and short-cuts to please the standards of people who will not be pleased regardless of what you end up doing in martial arts
*sparknotes.. do what you do at your own pace, for the skill.. not the belt
Great to see/read you again, brother. Hope you are well.
Tom Gavrilos
02-16-2011, 06:44 PM
Very good to see you. Unfortunately we don't have many people at your BJJ level on here. Always a pleasure.
Hadaka Jime
02-16-2011, 06:55 PM
Great to see/read you again, brother. Hope you are well.
Thank you, and Everything is good... despite my first case of pink-eye in my lifetime and run of the mill cold/flu I've been as healthy as I could ask for, basically just extremely busy
Other then working on my Jits BB 3-4 days a week, I've been working on becoming one of few people I know of to have 2 PhD's by 30, work, planning an epic trip to brazil; which leads to the next focus which is becomming fluent in a 6th language (currently fluent in 5, English, American Sign Language, French, Spanish, and Italian) working on my portugese.. tougher then the rest for some odd reason, but going to brazil I want to be able to be as good as a native speaker If i'm going to spend the kind of money it takes to do what I want to do... And on top of this I've developed a new sponataneous hobby and went out and spent a little over $1,000 on a cannon t3i DSLR camera taking still photo's of things for my own enjoyment, which surprisingly is taking a lot more time then I'd imagine... education has always been sort of a natural thing for me... just a ton of writing, and with grammar as crappy as mine I have to spend many weeknights editing my 2nd dissertation
It's to the point some of my friends are convinced I stay busier then Obama
I love these forums and joined forever ago, and truly enjoy checking back in, cutting lose and tracking some of the progress of the guys here
Very good to see you. Unfortunately we don't have many people at your BJJ level on here. Always a pleasure.I'm here for the family atmosphere... Most guys at my level I hear enough from in person... I learn more from white belts then I do purple, or brown and sometimes even black belts... At higher levels 'spirituality' and other outside things that have nothing to do with Jits come into play associated and attributed for there success or failures. Also (and not necessarily a terrible thing) after training as long as myself and many others have, less, how do i say this.. Independent(?) people become mere puppets of their long time coaches and Masters and I could tell you how they feel on all things Jits or life in general, and it's nice to see the perspective of the developing players, because they generally ask the off the wall questions that spark an interest for me that leads me to perusing something that will help my game, or some one else's and or remember holy crap yeah, those are some mistakes I need to be careful to not fall back into
Tom Gavrilos
02-16-2011, 06:57 PM
Wow. You should be very proud of yourself!
Hadaka Jime
02-16-2011, 07:05 PM
Wow. You should be very proud of yourself!
Likewise buddy, you're doing great things with the site and checked sherdog and your still an undefeated in your pro career!
Tom Gavrilos
02-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Likewise buddy, you're doing great things with the site and checked sherdog and your still an undefeated in your pro career!
I no longer fight but thank you very much. My life has changed very much in the past 2 years. Thats why I say you should be proud...picking a goal and starting it is one thing and has merit on its own...staying steadfast in that goal and adjuncting it with other positive activities is a whole other animal! kudos.
Tallsilkyslim
02-16-2011, 10:37 PM
Belt is nothing more then a color... BJ Penn wooped ass wearing a white one; as Paulo Fernando told me when I expressed my concern when moving to California this fall about delaying my dream of becoming a black belt
"The belt is a belt, when your out there competing the belt can't help you, I have seen white belts rush to get their blue belts and go out there and get choked and look over at their trainer... I bet then they'd think HEY BELT I'M GETTING CHOKED!!" the belt can't talk back to you, or talk for you... only your skill on the Mat can talk for you"
I couldn't agree more with him. I am content being a brown belt and am still working for the black belt... but it's no longer a matter of speed, but refinement of skill. At this point in my Jits career, I wouldn't want to receive a black belt if I didn't think I deserved it, and thankfully I have great trainers and coaches who would never give me a belt if they didn't truly believe I deserved or am ready for it.
I look at the 'BJJ Police' like kids in highschool, your going to be judged no matter what the fuck you do, so just like back then... I don't really give a shit what other people who are snobby and elitist think about me. I'm gonna be me, If you've got something legitimately constructive to help my game, I'll listen.. But if your going to say my belt is fraud because i got it 8 months faster than you, then you can fuck off... no one has the right to say you don't deserve a belt if you know that you worked your ass of to earn it. And even if they're the same belt, and can pummel you on the mat it doesn't mean your belt isn't legit (I mean there is exceptions of course.. a blackbelt in 3 month isn't going to happen, but crazy things Have happened there is plenty of fast learners or "prodigy's" out there)
all in all I'd say belt are too over-hyped in general by those in and outside of the martial arts communities, It's pushing us further away from passion and desire for our discipline, and more towards mindless competition and short-cuts to please the standards of people who will not be pleased regardless of what you end up doing in martial arts
*sparknotes.. do what you do at your own pace, for the skill.. not the belt
Always good to see ya on here Brett. Thanks for the insight. Seriously that was exactly what needed to be said.
Ari Bolden
02-16-2011, 10:48 PM
Brett
I will echo the other guys and say it's nice to have you back here! I look coward to reading some of your new posts.
Be well bro
Ari
michaelwbray
02-22-2011, 07:54 AM
I think that BJJ belts should be a good indicator of how you go against the standard other competitor your rank. I don't like the idea of sympathy belts for people that aren't as physically gifted as other people so that they stay encouraged. I see that the same as bumping up the results of slightly dumber students in high school / college. They weren't born as smart, so they aren't going to get as high grades as other people.
Not everyone is smart enough to earn a PHD in medicine, and not everyone is physically capable of earning a black belt in BJJ.
I do think that at the time of ranking, you should be compared against other people your own
1) Gender
2) Age
3) Weight
Tallsilkyslim
02-22-2011, 04:03 PM
I think that BJJ belts should be a good indicator of how you go against the standard other competitor your rank. I don't like the idea of sympathy belts for people that aren't as physically gifted as other people so that they stay encouraged. I see that the same as bumping up the results of slightly dumber students in high school / college. They weren't born as smart, so they aren't going to get as high grades as other people.
Not everyone is smart enough to earn a PHD in medicine, and not everyone is physically capable of earning a black belt in BJJ.
I do think that at the time of ranking, you should be compared against other people your own
1) Gender
2) Age
3) Weight
So if you can beat all the slow, dumb, fat people(like yourself) you should get promoted?
I don't mean "like yourself" as in you Mike as in the example you gave lol
This problem is largely overcome by following a syllabus. To be promoted in our organisation your instructor must have observed you over a period of time grappling with students & himself to observe & gauge your improvement. When he thinks he is happy with what he has seen & felt he will ask you to demonstrate the syllabus. Only then will you be considered for promotion.
michaelwbray
02-23-2011, 07:13 PM
Slow and dumb shouldn't come into it but weight should. You need to compare 100kg people againt other 100kg people. Keep in mind a muscular person can be 100kg as well as a fat person. You compare the weights against each other, not the persons build.
Having a good sylabuss is important as well.
Glad you clarified the post, thought you were calling me fat when I first read it :)
Ari Bolden
02-24-2011, 12:18 PM
The one problem as I see it is this:
If we compare all 100kg people to one another, that doesn't take into consideration natural ability.
IF there is ONE standard for each weight class, then we can infer that all players would be the same level in skill. It is not a fine science, it is an art based on thousands of variables. You may be awesome at sweeps, just suck getting the triangle choke because of short stubby legs.
dunno...just thinking out loud.
younwha
02-24-2011, 12:38 PM
But if you suck at triangles because of your physical stature you should be able to find out something that works better for you than a guy like Ryan Hall. Dude has retard flexibility, I don't. So for me, maybe half guard is a better game.
Ari Bolden
02-24-2011, 01:19 PM
But if you suck at triangles because of your physical stature you should be able to find out something that works better for you than a guy like Ryan Hall. Dude has retard flexibility, I don't. So for me, maybe half guard is a better game.
This is my point exactly. If you cannot perform certain moves within jiu jitsu, then, by some of the arguments above, you will never be able to be a black belt. Take a short stocky guy with short legs. He can't do triangles. No belt? What if you are a black belt and get an injury that prevents a large number of moves. Does the belt get taken away because you can't perform moves now?
michaelwbray
02-25-2011, 05:54 AM
You might have short legs and be unable to lock a triangle on someone your own size but you should be able to demonstrate that you can lock it on a smaller person.
Each body type has it's own advantages and you have to work to your own advantages.
Everyone has there own game and things even out. Rolling with someone your own weight, age and gender gives you the best indication you can get. I think there are other factors, but seeing how you roll against them, plus how fluid and technical your techniques are is 95% of it.
This is my point exactly. If you cannot perform certain moves within jiu jitsu, then, by some of the arguments above, you will never be able to be a black belt. Take a short stocky guy with short legs. He can't do triangles. No belt? What if you are a black belt and get an injury that prevents a large number of moves. Does the belt get taken away because you can't perform moves now?
If he can't do triangles, it doesn't matter, at a black belt level (unless your talking strictly competition).
If he can't do [insert technique here] it doesn't matter. What matters is he understands the body mechanics behind said technique, can teach the said technique, and can perform the technique at a good enough level in demonstration to teach it to other people so they can use it.
At a blue belt, or purple belt level I think it is more important to be able to do techniques, but at some point the techniques become a blur of the same things...hip movement...45 degree angles...
In my personal opinion, at any belt level (but especially black), it's not the individual technique that matters. It's the application and knowledge of using your body and your opponents body properly yielding proper amount of force in a combative situation in order to 'win'.
This is my point exactly. If you cannot perform certain moves within jiu jitsu, then, by some of the arguments above, you will never be able to be a black belt. Take a short stocky guy with short legs. He can't do triangles. No belt? What if you are a black belt and get an injury that prevents a large number of moves. Does the belt get taken away because you can't perform moves now?
Good point.
I don't know if this relates or not, and forgive yet another Karate reference, but what I did with some of my students was this - some were never going to be flexible enough to do a front leg hook kick to the head, (or other kicks) but they drilled them like everyone else, for the purpose of understanding the kick as much as a kicker would. After a period of time, their defense against that particular kick (that they couldn't do) would sometimes be better than the gifted, flexible guy who could kick like crazy.
Not being able to do certain techniques never came into account in my belt testing. (within reason, of course)
Micky
02-25-2011, 01:07 PM
I'm not very familiar with belt grading and what each belt requires, so I could be very wrong.
I'm under the impression that if a practioner can't complete a Triangle-choke for example it's as important for him to know where to go from there and what to do next; do they switch to an Arm-bar or an Omoplata....what series of techniques work together....this is where big portion of the real knowledge lies.
I could roll with a rookie with an amazing Triangle, but if I escape he hasn't a notoin what to do. On the flip-side I could roll with a seasoned vet, I escape his Triangle to find myself swept or in an Armbar.
cuzz63
02-26-2011, 11:00 PM
This might help avoid the BJJ police.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jiu-Jitsu-Authentic-Certificate-official-Rank-Belt-/120684073875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1954d393
jakem
02-26-2011, 11:16 PM
so i have to change my name to fredrick jones....?..lol
Tallsilkyslim
02-26-2011, 11:58 PM
This might help avoid the BJJ police.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jiu-Jitsu-Authentic-Certificate-official-Rank-Belt-/120684073875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1954d393
I am pretty sure anyone that buys that certificate gets put on a list. :eek:
so i have to change my name to fredrick jones....?..lol
That was the lulz. :D
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